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Sony's LED Motion not fit for purpose |
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#1 |
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Sony's LED Motion not fit for purpose
Just a warning to anyone thinking of buying a Sony television. Make sure it has the fully configurable MotionFlow (800Hz). Anything below this and all you get is LED Motion (which Sony do not state), which simply darkens the picture to a ridiculous degree so as to make it unwatchable. and therefore LED Motion can't be used , so you're left with no motion processing at all and a juddery and blurry picture when there's any movement.
I found out the hard way after buying the KDL42W706. At the top of the product details, Sony state the following: "This Sony LED TV set gives 'reach in' depth, rich colours and, thanks to Motionflow XR200, smooth motion. This high quality Motionflow system works especially well with fast moving action, such as sports events, without the blur you can see with standard 50Hz TVs". Not surprisingly, I believed I was buying a television with a state of the art motion processing system, not something that darkened the picture to unwatchable levels. I'd be interested to hear other's experiences of this issue. |
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#2 |
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I've no idea what you're on about?, that set has an excellent picture - presumably you've turned OFF auto-brightness? (which messes up all sets that have it - it's under the Eco settings, next to auto-off - which also wants turning off).
But on all sets the 'picture processing options' generally make things worse, usually best to turn off everything you can. |
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#3 |
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Quote:
I've no idea what you're on about?, that set has an excellent picture - presumably you've turned OFF auto-brightness? (which messes up all sets that have it - it's under the Eco settings, next to auto-off - which also wants turning off).
But on all sets the 'picture processing options' generally make things worse, usually best to turn off everything you can. http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/kdl42...1402233639.htm And yes, all Eco settings including light sensor are off. LG, for instance, provide their excellent TruMotion configurable motion processor on their entry level sets (it was on my 42LB580V which was returned due to uneven backlighting) with no picture darkening, so why can't Sony provide something similar on this considerably more expensive set? |
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#4 |
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From reading around it seems that Sony have misrepresented this model.
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#5 |
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From reading around it seems that Sony have misrepresented this model.
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#6 |
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The name 'Motionflow XR200' sounds like a dealer special 1.3 litre Ford Escort blinged up to resemble the hot hatch model of the range. Whack on a spoiler, sill extensions and the Motionflow badges and the punters come pouring in.
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#7 |
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Quote:
As for what I'm talking about, this review (see Motion para) explains:
http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/kdl42...1402233639.htm And yes, all Eco settings including light sensor are off. LG, for instance, provide their excellent TruMotion configurable motion processor on their entry level sets (it was on my 42LB580V which was returned due to uneven backlighting) with no picture darkening, so why can't Sony provide something similar on this considerably more expensive set? I note that this revue says, "Highly Recommended", at the bottom of the page. |
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#8 |
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I note that this revue says, "Highly Recommended," at the bottom of the page.
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#9 |
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And the relevance? Most expert reviews rate the TV highly, but this is in spite of the motion handling issues, not because of them. Black levels and detail are good but, if you look at the thread title, it is not about those things. It is about the shortcomings of Sony's LED Motion and that Sony are knowingly misleading customers into thinking they are getting a first rate motion processor instead of one that is unusable. As I said, if LG can provide a much better motion processor on televisions half the price, Sony should be able to provide something at least as good on this one.
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#10 |
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You did recommend that we read the revue, presumably to prove your point. If you prefer LG TVs buy them, I have just bought an end of line KDL-32W705B (£299 John Lewis) and am very satisfied with it. You prefer LG, I prefer Sony, It's a free country.
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#11 |
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The relevance is that the KDL-32W705B also uses Motion Flow XR 200Hz technology.
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#12 |
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The relevance is that the KDL-32W705B also uses Motion Flow XR 200Hz technology.
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#13 |
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Just a warning to anyone thinking of buying a Sony television. Make sure it has the fully configurable MotionFlow (800Hz). Anything below this and all you get is LED Motion (which Sony do not state), which simply darkens the picture to a ridiculous degree so as to make it unwatchable. and therefore LED Motion can't be used , so you're left with no motion processing at all and a juddery and blurry picture when there's any movement.
I found out the hard way after buying the KDL42W706. At the top of the product details, Sony state the following: "This Sony LED TV set gives 'reach in' depth, rich colours and, thanks to Motionflow XR200, smooth motion. This high quality Motionflow system works especially well with fast moving action, such as sports events, without the blur you can see with standard 50Hz TVs". Not surprisingly, I believed I was buying a television with a state of the art motion processing system, not something that darkened the picture to unwatchable levels. I'd be interested to hear other's experiences of this issue. Read your original post, you asked for other peoples opinion and I gave it to you. I even went to the trouble of reading the revue you recommended as I have just purchased a similar set and thought you may have spotted something I hadn't. LED motion is an odd option (also found on the HX range under the name of Motion flow impulse), I have no idea why is fitted, presumably if it wasn't there you would be happy. Just ignore it. |
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#14 |
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I think the problem is that Sony use the term "MotionFlow" for two completely different technologies.
It's like if a car manufacturer saying their new model has passenger-side airbags... and when you check it turns out there is a cushion glued to the front dash. -------- MotionFlow MCFI: is the top-end one with frame interpolation MotionFlow XR200hz: clockwork and lard based smoothing. I mean, obviously people are going to be annoyed. |
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#15 |
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Possibly but the O/P bought this TV and when he found it didn't do what it was claimed to do, instead of taking it back he came on a forum to blacken Sony's name. A rather odd situation as any reputable shop would have exchanged it for him.
Certainly the one I bought, which is very similar, seems fine and the revue he quoted said it was highly recommended. |
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#16 |
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MotionFlow MCFI: is the top-end one with frame interpolation
MotionFlow XR200hz: clockwork and lard based smoothing. Sony has always played an odd hand when it comes to specs. But if "MotionFlow" is their name for image processing and there are different levels of it according to whether one buys entry-level, mid range or top end, then is it right to get so upset? Of course, if they're somehow duping the customers in to thinking that every set has 800Hz processing then that's a different matter. |
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#17 |
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MotionFlow XR200hz: clockwork and lard based smoothing.
I really only started this thread to forewarn anyone thinking about buying a Sony about this issue. Not that I recommend it, but if anyone wants to find out more about this, there's a more in-depth thread with pretty much the same title as this one that I started on the Sony forums. |
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#18 |
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Hang on a sec; isn't the above two different versions of Motion flow though? .... MCFI vs XR200hz
Sony has always played an odd hand when it comes to specs. But if "MotionFlow" is their name for image processing and there are different levels of it according to whether one buys entry-level, mid range or top end, then is it right to get so upset? Of course, if they're somehow duping the customers in to thinking that every set has 800Hz processing then that's a different matter. For example if I produce a brand that is called "diamondium" and state repeatedly that it contains 50% diamond... then produce a product that I call diamondium 200XR which contains no diamond whatsoever...(and I fail to mention this) We don't see that selling technique done in the UK anymore, well maybe on BBC Watchdog. Years back when Intel produced a sub-par CPU they called it 'Celeron' rather than 'Pentium', that's the honest way of doing it Sony. |
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#19 |
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Possibly but the O/P bought this TV and when he found it didn't do what it was claimed to do, instead of taking it back he came on a forum to blacken Sony's name. A rather odd situation as any reputable shop would have exchanged it for him.
Certainly the one I bought, which is very similar, seems fine and the revue he quoted said it was highly recommended. Shops are under NO obligation to exchange goods when there is no fault with it. If it has been mis-represented by the shop, that would be different, but I'm not sure that's the case here. With electricals it's particularly difficult, because the margins are low and the shop ends up with a used / second hand item it then has to sell at a discount, which will often wipe out any gain of selling the customer a higher priced set. |
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#20 |
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I'll take issue with your claim that a "reputable" shop would have exchanged it.
Shops are under NO obligation to exchange goods when there is no fault with it. If it has been mis-represented by the shop, that would be different, but I'm not sure that's the case here. With electricals it's particularly difficult, because the margins are low and the shop ends up with a used / second hand item it then has to sell at a discount, which will often wipe out any gain of selling the customer a higher priced set. |
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#21 |
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Nigel, who I understand is a Sony agent, will have all the relevant information as to what would happen under those circumstances.
So as already noted, sets changed when not faulty are most likely to be sold off at a discount by the retailer. |
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#22 |
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If a retailer exchanges a product, it's their problem - not the manufacturers (unless of course it's actually faulty - then if it's under 28 days old it can usually be returned).
So as already noted, sets changed when not faulty are most likely to be sold off at a discount by the retailer. |
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#23 |
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It's very likely not permitted in the UK to do that.
Sony are clearly very sensitive about this issue, as a visit to their support forums shows. It would be interesting to see the outcome if this went to court. |
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#24 |
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Yes. Simply taking the Sale Of Goods Act alone, Sony MotionFlow XR200 and XR400 fail the 'fit for the intended purpose' test at the very least, almost certainly the 'as described' test, and probably the 'of merchantable quality' test too.
Sony are clearly very sensitive about this issue, as a visit to their support forums shows. It would be interesting to see the outcome if this went to court. If the set is working exactly as designed by Sony, and includes all the features as described by Sony, where is the issue, other than you not liking the picture? Did you see the TV before purchasing it? If so your own viewing should have deterred you from purchasing a set that, in your opinion, is not as good as you would have wanted. If you did not view the set in person and bought it blind, how is that Sony's fault? It would be very much like buying a car that had new fangled suspension, then complaining afterwards that you don't like the way it handles. Also, was the article you supplied the link too something you found afterwards to justify your opinion, or one that you read prior to buying the TV. If the latter, it really should have been viewed in person before purchase. |
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#25 |
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Yes. Simply taking the Sale Of Goods Act alone, Sony MotionFlow XR200 and XR400 fail the 'fit for the intended purpose' test at the very least, almost certainly the 'as described' test, and probably the 'of merchantable quality' test too.
"Fit for purpose" means that it performs the job it was designed for. i.e. if a set is equipped with a HD tuner but it doesn't work despite the set receiving the appropriate signals then you've got grounds for complaint. What you can't expect is that the HD tuner decodes subscription HD channels when you've not paid for the service. That's something you can't complain about, which is the sort of thing you seem to be trying to do when you say the TV should have "a state of the art motion processing system". As I understand it, MotionFlow comes in several different versions depending on the TV model: If your TV has MotionFlow XR200 then it's unreasonable to expect that to work exactly the same as XR800 as fitted to a higher spec model; so I don't believe you can say it fails the 'Fit for purpose' test. "Of merchantable quality" means that it works and that bits aren't falling off. Once again, it's unreasonable to complain that the TV doesn't perform better than designed just because you've misunderstood the technology. For example, a "Full HD TV" refers to it being a 1080p panel and accepting the full range of HD resolutions. It doesn't state that the TV comes with a HD Tuner. So again, I think it has passed the real test rather than your interpretation of what the test should be. Finally, "As described"..... This is the only area I can where there's some greyness. However, AFAICT, the bone of contention is that there's not the comprehensive menu options as found in higher versions of MotionFlow. In this TV the MotionFlow feature does less (as befitting its lower XR number) and it's an "always on" feature. You're given an additional toy in the form of LED Motion. This is black frame insertion which, it appears, doesn't work that well. Now forgive me for playing Devils Advocate for a second, but setting aside Sony's customary ambiguity on specs, isn't this really about you wanting more than you've actually paid for? I mean that the 42" version of this TV is £400. That's hardly a 'state of the art' budget, is it. |
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