Honestly, I know this sounds like I'm blaming the 'victim'. But had I not known how that scene would ultimately play out, was it that obvious Joel was uncomfortable in a serious way? I know its embarrassing and awkward to essentially say 'stop', but everytime he did it, it sounded exactly like someone playfully saying 'stop', but is actually seeing the funny side, and everyone else in the room seemed to agree. It was only in the diary room afterwards it became clear how uncomfortable Joel had been? I know its hard for people with low confidence to set boundaries but...is it normal to give no serious signs/hints at all at the time?
Wow Joel is appalling at setting boundaries
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You're clearly not very good at reading the signs. In fairness to him he is 19 and was overwhelmed by the situation he was in.
I feel like it shouldn't have been his responsibility to stay stop, it should have been Aaron's to not go further with what he was doing without hearing a "yes" or being consented to what he did
Originally Posted by Saturn:
“You're clearly not very good at reading the signs. In fairness to him he is 19 and was overwhelmed by the situation he was in.”
“You're clearly not very good at reading the signs. In fairness to him he is 19 and was overwhelmed by the situation he was in.”
That's a fair point, in which case I think BB should have taken this into consideration, and also taken into consideration that the housemates could not have read the situation properly because of Joel's ambiguity.
BB could have nipped that in the bud, after what a minute or two? But they allowed it carry on for quite a while before calling Aaron into the diary room.
It seems like obtaining edits for tomorrow's highlight show was more important than addressing the situation when it was appropriate to step in.
Do people really need to set clear boundaries that say don't rub up on me naked unless you know we are in some kind of consensual relationship?
Originally Posted by Hosai:
“...is it normal to give no serious signs/hints at all at the time?”
“...is it normal to give no serious signs/hints at all at the time?”
Other than repeatedly saying no and stop?
He's obviously young and inexperienced, and obviously never had to face that kind of situation before. It's so easy to condemn and be judgemental isn't it? But place a dozen people in the exact same situation and each one will react differently !!! All that really matters is - irregardless of how other people think he should/shouldn't have/did/didn't react - that he did feel awkward and uncomfortable. He said himself he didn't know how to react. I'm quite astounded by the condemnation of him by some posters.
Originally Posted by Hosai:
“Honestly, I know this sounds like I'm blaming the 'victim'. But had I not known how that scene would ultimately play out, was it that obvious Joel was uncomfortable in a serious way? I know its embarrassing and awkward to essentially say 'stop', but everytime he did it, it sounded exactly like someone playfully saying 'stop', but is actually seeing the funny side, and everyone else in the room seemed to agree. It was only in the diary room afterwards it became clear how uncomfortable Joel had been? I know its hard for people with low confidence to set boundaries but...is it normal to give no serious signs/hints at all at the time?”
“Honestly, I know this sounds like I'm blaming the 'victim'. But had I not known how that scene would ultimately play out, was it that obvious Joel was uncomfortable in a serious way? I know its embarrassing and awkward to essentially say 'stop', but everytime he did it, it sounded exactly like someone playfully saying 'stop', but is actually seeing the funny side, and everyone else in the room seemed to agree. It was only in the diary room afterwards it became clear how uncomfortable Joel had been? I know its hard for people with low confidence to set boundaries but...is it normal to give no serious signs/hints at all at the time?”
I heard him say no over and over. Joel is 19. He's been officially " adult " for a year. He hasn't the experience to deal with such in your face sexual attention let alone from another man. Aaron asked Joel earlier in the day if he had any gay friends and he said no.
I heard Joel say no. Aaron should have stopped at the first no. At 19 it's not so easy , the experience or rather bad experiences one learns skills from hasn't happened to him yet. They have to Mr. 200.
I don't think there was one person in that room that read it that Joel was seriously troubled by Aaron's behaviour. I mean they are a somewhat selfish lot but they aren't all sadists who sit around and cheer someone getting sexually abused. I think they saw it as Aaron intended but not as Joel later determined it. Indeed watching from home it seemed like a bit of fun that was starting to get tedious and obnoxious. But I didn't think that it was in the realms of sexual abuse or attempt rape. At that moment if Joel had very clearly and firmly said stop then I'm sure the people in that room would have stopped Aaron. But as Joel gave the impression of the straight man (no pun intended) in a two man comedy act, I don't think anyone thought that it had turned sinister. Since then however Joel clarified his feelings on the mattter and that is the most important thing but before then it seemed like a particularly annoying wind-up.
Having said that, glad to see Aaron go just because it means that he's gone. Nice.
Having said that, glad to see Aaron go just because it means that he's gone. Nice.
If BB thought that Joel was uncomfortable, they would have stopped it straight away. I can completely understand why some people think Joel wasn't as offended by it as he says he was in the diary room.
Like you say, his "stop it" seemed like the friendly, jokey kind
Like you say, his "stop it" seemed like the friendly, jokey kind
Originally Posted by JVS:
“Everybody was laughing, including Joel, it's no wonder Aaron thought he was being funny.”
“Everybody was laughing, including Joel, it's no wonder Aaron thought he was being funny.”
and theyd been drinking. total overeaction by big brother.
Also these people are basically colleagues they have only known each other a couple of weeks. People seem to be viewing this from the point of view of their groups of mates.
Originally Posted by meglosmurmurs:
“I think categorically telling Aaron many days ago that he is straight was a pretty good boundary.”
“I think categorically telling Aaron many days ago that he is straight was a pretty good boundary.”
This is a very good point. I've seen Joel look uncomfortable quite a few times since Aaron decided to pursue him. He's also asked Joel quite pertinent questions and put him on the spot.
Aaron fancied him and seemed to get a kick out of embarrassing him as did some of the other housemates even though there was no maliciousness meant.
It all got out of hand but that was down more to Aaron's wishful thinking and refusing to take no for an answer.
Originally Posted by Hosai:
“Honestly, I know this sounds like I'm blaming the 'victim'. But had I not known how that scene would ultimately play out, was it that obvious Joel was uncomfortable in a serious way? I know its embarrassing and awkward to essentially say 'stop', but everytime he did it, it sounded exactly like someone playfully saying 'stop', but is actually seeing the funny side, and everyone else in the room seemed to agree. It was only in the diary room afterwards it became clear how uncomfortable Joel had been? I know its hard for people with low confidence to set boundaries but...is it normal to give no serious signs/hints at all at the time?”
“Honestly, I know this sounds like I'm blaming the 'victim'. But had I not known how that scene would ultimately play out, was it that obvious Joel was uncomfortable in a serious way? I know its embarrassing and awkward to essentially say 'stop', but everytime he did it, it sounded exactly like someone playfully saying 'stop', but is actually seeing the funny side, and everyone else in the room seemed to agree. It was only in the diary room afterwards it became clear how uncomfortable Joel had been? I know its hard for people with low confidence to set boundaries but...is it normal to give no serious signs/hints at all at the time?”
He was very uncomfortable, you could tell by his mumbling and nervous laugh . If he acted one way he could appear homophobic or if he acted another way he could appear gay. He was possibly a bit afraid of how far Aaron would go with this, but trying not to give offense himself. He wants to be a politician.
Originally Posted by Vesna:
“I heard him say no over and over. Joel is 19. He's been officially " adult " for a year. He hasn't the experience to deal with such in your face sexual attention let alone from another man. Aaron asked Joel earlier in the day if he had any gay friends and he said no.
I heard Joel say no. Aaron should have stopped at the first no. At 19 it's not so easy , the experience or rather bad experiences one learns skills from hasn't happened to him yet. They have to Mr. 200.”
“I heard him say no over and over. Joel is 19. He's been officially " adult " for a year. He hasn't the experience to deal with such in your face sexual attention let alone from another man. Aaron asked Joel earlier in the day if he had any gay friends and he said no.
I heard Joel say no. Aaron should have stopped at the first no. At 19 it's not so easy , the experience or rather bad experiences one learns skills from hasn't happened to him yet. They have to Mr. 200.”
This.
Originally Posted by dialectic:
“He was very uncomfortable, you could tell by his mumbling and nervous laugh . If he acted one way he could appear homophobic or if he acted another way he could appear gay. He was possibly a bit afraid of how far Aaron would go with this, but trying not to give offense himself. He wants to be a politician.”
“He was very uncomfortable, you could tell by his mumbling and nervous laugh . If he acted one way he could appear homophobic or if he acted another way he could appear gay. He was possibly a bit afraid of how far Aaron would go with this, but trying not to give offense himself. He wants to be a politician.”
He said as much telling Aaron he was trying to predict his next move so he could avoid him. I wonder if they were locked in at that point, leaving Joel in a sense trapped.
Leave the lad alone. Aaron was the one in the wrong he has been pushing the boundaries for days with Joel. It was a very intimidating situation for him and must have been difficult to deal with with everyone else in the bedroom laughing and screaming at Aaron.
Originally Posted by Glinny:
“Leave the lad alone. Aaron was the one in the wrong he has been pushing the boundaries for days with Joel. It was a very intimidating situation for him and must have been difficult to deal with with everyone else in the bedroom laughing and screaming at Aaron.”
“Leave the lad alone. Aaron was the one in the wrong he has been pushing the boundaries for days with Joel. It was a very intimidating situation for him and must have been difficult to deal with with everyone else in the bedroom laughing and screaming at Aaron.”
Agreed. Peer pressure and not wanting to look like he can't take a joke etc...
Originally Posted by Desy Boy:
“I don't think there was one person in that room that read it that Joel was seriously troubled by Aaron's behaviour. I mean they are a somewhat selfish lot but they aren't all sadists who sit around and cheer someone getting sexually abused. I think they saw it as Aaron intended but not as Joel later determined it. Indeed watching from home it seemed like a bit of fun that was starting to get tedious and obnoxious. But I didn't think that it was in the realms of sexual abuse or attempt rape. At that moment if Joel had very clearly and firmly said stop then I'm sure the people in that room would have stopped Aaron. But as Joel gave the impression of the straight man (no pun intended) in a two man comedy act, I don't think anyone thought that it had turned sinister. Since then however Joel clarified his feelings on the mattter and that is the most important thing but before then it seemed like a particularly annoying wind-up.
Having said that, glad to see Aaron go just because it means that he's gone. Nice.”
“I don't think there was one person in that room that read it that Joel was seriously troubled by Aaron's behaviour. I mean they are a somewhat selfish lot but they aren't all sadists who sit around and cheer someone getting sexually abused. I think they saw it as Aaron intended but not as Joel later determined it. Indeed watching from home it seemed like a bit of fun that was starting to get tedious and obnoxious. But I didn't think that it was in the realms of sexual abuse or attempt rape. At that moment if Joel had very clearly and firmly said stop then I'm sure the people in that room would have stopped Aaron. But as Joel gave the impression of the straight man (no pun intended) in a two man comedy act, I don't think anyone thought that it had turned sinister. Since then however Joel clarified his feelings on the mattter and that is the most important thing but before then it seemed like a particularly annoying wind-up.
Having said that, glad to see Aaron go just because it means that he's gone. Nice.”
That's truely the nail on the head. They had become somewhat of a double act, and in previous episodes Joel had been seeming to enjoy his role as the 'straight' character. Thats why I just feel he needed to say "ENOUGH", because the jokey "go back to your bed now Aaron", seemed akin to the 'role' he'd been playing for weeks as straight man to Aaron's craziness, rather than "Your actually making me very uncomfortable now/ seriously f off now".
I actually think joel set boundaries quite well.
I was once in a large public group setting, where I was singled out and what I now consider, publicly psychologically abused by someone. At the time everyone laughed, as did I, to cover my embarrassment. But afterwards I felt completely humiliated and a number of people I spoke to had also realised with hindsight that it was inappropriate. The person was never to my knowledge invited back again, but I still feel awkward thinking about it now.
Oh and I was in my 40s and a professional person.
I was once in a large public group setting, where I was singled out and what I now consider, publicly psychologically abused by someone. At the time everyone laughed, as did I, to cover my embarrassment. But afterwards I felt completely humiliated and a number of people I spoke to had also realised with hindsight that it was inappropriate. The person was never to my knowledge invited back again, but I still feel awkward thinking about it now.
Oh and I was in my 40s and a professional person.
Originally Posted by Vesna:
“He said as much telling Aaron he was trying to predict his next move so he could avoid him. I wonder if they were locked in at that point, leaving Joel in a sense trapped.”
“He said as much telling Aaron he was trying to predict his next move so he could avoid him. I wonder if they were locked in at that point, leaving Joel in a sense trapped.”
Possibly -I wouldn't like to be locked in one room with that many egos.
Originally Posted by Vesna:
“He said as much telling Aaron he was trying to predict his next move so he could avoid him. I wonder if they were locked in at that point, leaving Joel in a sense trapped.”
“He said as much telling Aaron he was trying to predict his next move so he could avoid him. I wonder if they were locked in at that point, leaving Joel in a sense trapped.”
Yes but from what I saw they seemed to be seeing it in the context of a game in the spirit of fun.
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