What Sarah's saying is completely wrong, even if Joel was openly gay and dressing in women's clothes etc - how does that give anybody else the right to push boundaries?
joel and sarah row in tonight's show...
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Originally Posted by Alrightmate:
“Is it a terrible thing to say?
Isn't it possible that there's an element of truth to what she said and that there are no innocent parties here?”
“Is it a terrible thing to say?
Isn't it possible that there's an element of truth to what she said and that there are no innocent parties here?”
No.
It reminds me of when people say things like, "Well she shouldn't have been wearing a short skirt if she didn't want something to happen!" It's an abhorrent things to suggest Joel is partially responsible because he was wearing women's clothing. I mean, what does that even mean?
Originally Posted by pjh8:
“Sarah has officially dug her own grave.”
“Sarah has officially dug her own grave.”
Sadly I think she hitched her waggon to the wrong horse.
Originally Posted by Niamh.:
“"Nick tries to defend Joel but Sarah tells him not to get involved a sshe adds: “I have no issue with the fact they removed Aaron. My issue is you then parade around in women’s clothing. You encourage it.”
Terrible thing to say”
“"Nick tries to defend Joel but Sarah tells him not to get involved a sshe adds: “I have no issue with the fact they removed Aaron. My issue is you then parade around in women’s clothing. You encourage it.”
Terrible thing to say”
Hmm I kind of understand where she's coming from
From the limited amount we've seen Joel has dressed up like a woman and worn high heels. Last night didn't Harriet get out a skirt and give him it to wear
I thought that was dreadful at that moment but from an over all perspective I can see that this behaviour has made Aaron and all of the HMs consider that Joel may be gay or gay curious. This along with his lack of assertiveness in telling Aaron to back off from prying etc prior to last night's encounter has maybe almost facilitated an incident like this to happen.
That still doesn't mean Aaron was in any way right to do what he did. As Joel was very clear in saying 'no' during the incident.
It's annoying how she assumes that a man wearing women's clothes has to be a sexual thing.
I'm sure some drag queens would have something to say about that.
In Joel's case it's obviously just about having harmless fun with dressing up.
I'm sure some drag queens would have something to say about that.
In Joel's case it's obviously just about having harmless fun with dressing up.
Originally Posted by Fudd:
“It doesn't matter if Joel had been throwing himself at Aaron; it doesn't matter if the pair has been kissing; it wouldn't matter if they had been in a relationship. The moment he said 'no' (more than once) it should have stopped. He followed that up by saying that Aaron was stressing him out, he felt uncomfortable and he even took himself out of the room.
Going by Sarah's argument, Danny should be allowed to jump her at any time without repercussions because she's certainly not been pushing him away.”
“It doesn't matter if Joel had been throwing himself at Aaron; it doesn't matter if the pair has been kissing; it wouldn't matter if they had been in a relationship. The moment he said 'no' (more than once) it should have stopped. He followed that up by saying that Aaron was stressing him out, he felt uncomfortable and he even took himself out of the room.
Going by Sarah's argument, Danny should be allowed to jump her at any time without repercussions because she's certainly not been pushing him away.”
The problem here is that some people are calling Joel a 'victim'. Which implies that a crime has been committed.
Even in BB's reprimanding of Aaron they spoke of how his actions could be seen to be offensive, they didn't tell Aaron that he had committed a crime.
I watched Joel throughout the interaction again, and he was smiling pretty much throughout the incident, and at points he was sort of laughing himself.
So I think you'd have to give the other housemates some slack for thinking that Joel wasn't as distressed as he made out afterwards if at the time he appeared to be playing along with the joke. It's how it would have looked to them.
If people describe Joel as a victim, that throws up all sorts of connotations which may not be a reliable way of seeing the situation.
Originally Posted by yohinnchild:
“Most votes are cast during the actual friday show. Plus if it's as close a the polls suggest, this could well swing it towards a Sarah eviction”
“Most votes are cast during the actual friday show. Plus if it's as close a the polls suggest, this could well swing it towards a Sarah eviction”
Depends when it's shown - it could be late into the highlights show, potentially after the lines have closed.
Originally Posted by Fudd:
“Depends when it's shown - it could be late into the highlights show, potentially after the lines have closed.”
“Depends when it's shown - it could be late into the highlights show, potentially after the lines have closed.”
Well off course
Yeah, I like Sarah but it's really not on to say that and will see her gone (she's very likely going anyway, but this will be the nail in the coffin)
Victim blaming is never okay - it's similar to the 'they were asking for it' line that sex attackers spout. No one is ever asking for it, are they?
Victim blaming is never okay - it's similar to the 'they were asking for it' line that sex attackers spout. No one is ever asking for it, are they?
Originally Posted by Alrightmate:
“The problem here is that some people are calling Joel a 'victim'. Which implies that a crime has been committed.
Even in BB's reprimanding of Aaron they spoke of how his actions could be seen to be offensive, they didn't tell Aaron that he had committed a crime.
I watched Joel throughout the interaction again, and he was smiling pretty much throughout the incident, and at points he was sort of laughing himself.
So I think you'd have to give the other housemates some slack for thinking that Joel wasn't as distressed as he made out afterwards if at the time he appeared to be playing along with the joke. It's how it would have looked to them.
If people describe Joel as a victim, that throws up all sorts of connotations which may not be a reliable way of seeing the situation.”
“The problem here is that some people are calling Joel a 'victim'. Which implies that a crime has been committed.
Even in BB's reprimanding of Aaron they spoke of how his actions could be seen to be offensive, they didn't tell Aaron that he had committed a crime.
I watched Joel throughout the interaction again, and he was smiling pretty much throughout the incident, and at points he was sort of laughing himself.
So I think you'd have to give the other housemates some slack for thinking that Joel wasn't as distressed as he made out afterwards if at the time he appeared to be playing along with the joke. It's how it would have looked to them.
If people describe Joel as a victim, that throws up all sorts of connotations which may not be a reliable way of seeing the situation.”
No you can be a 'victim' with out an actual crime being committed. The word victim isn't exclusively tied to criminality.
Originally Posted by trevor tiger:
“Hmm I kind of understand where she's coming from
From the limited amount we've seen Joel has dressed up like a woman and worn high heels. Last night didn't Harriet get out a skirt and give him it to wear I thought that was dreadful at that moment but from an over all perspective I can see that this behaviour has made Aaron and all of the HMs consider that Joel may be gay or gay curious.
This along with his lack of assertiveness in telling Aaron to back off from prying etc prior to last night's encounter has maybe almost facilitated an incident like this to happen.
That still doesn't mean Aaron was in any way right to do what he did. As Joel was very clear in saying 'no' during the incident.”
“Hmm I kind of understand where she's coming from
From the limited amount we've seen Joel has dressed up like a woman and worn high heels. Last night didn't Harriet get out a skirt and give him it to wear
I thought that was dreadful at that moment but from an over all perspective I can see that this behaviour has made Aaron and all of the HMs consider that Joel may be gay or gay curious. This along with his lack of assertiveness in telling Aaron to back off from prying etc prior to last night's encounter has maybe almost facilitated an incident like this to happen.
That still doesn't mean Aaron was in any way right to do what he did. As Joel was very clear in saying 'no' during the incident.”
And what also makes me skeptical is that at times in there Joel has not been a shrinking violet when it comes to making comments to other housemates. He has very much shown an assertive side when telling other housemates to their faces that he doesn't like them. So this idea that he has an inability to display assertiveness when required doesn't ring true with me.
See him in the debating task? he was great. He came across as very assertive and more than capable of holding his own.
Originally Posted by Alrightmate:
“Is it a terrible thing to say?
Isn't it possible that there's an element of truth to what she said and that there are no innocent parties here?”
“Is it a terrible thing to say?
Isn't it possible that there's an element of truth to what she said and that there are no innocent parties here?”
No, it isn'possible. Aaron was way out of line.
Originally Posted by Fudd:
“...
Going by Sarah's argument, Danny should be allowed to jump her at any time without repercussions because she's certainly not been pushing him away.”
“...
Going by Sarah's argument, Danny should be allowed to jump her at any time without repercussions because she's certainly not been pushing him away.”
No, because she would make it very clear when he crossed a line. That was her point when she was asked what she would do.
Originally Posted by Alrightmate:
“So this idea that he has an inability to display assertiveness when required doesn't ring true with me.
See him in the debating task? he was great. He came across as very assertive and more than capable of holding his own.”
“So this idea that he has an inability to display assertiveness when required doesn't ring true with me.
See him in the debating task? he was great. He came across as very assertive and more than capable of holding his own.”
Debating is completely different though to warding off a naked person making unwanted advances.
Originally Posted by academia:
“No, it isn'possible. Aaron was way out of line.”
“No, it isn'possible. Aaron was way out of line.”
But both could be true: Aaron was way out of line and there was still an element of truth in what Sarah said.
Originally Posted by Alrightmate:
“The problem here is that some people are calling Joel a 'victim'. Which implies that a crime has been committed.
Even in BB's reprimanding of Aaron they spoke of how his actions could be seen to be offensive, they didn't tell Aaron that he had committed a crime.
I watched Joel throughout the interaction again, and he was smiling pretty much throughout the incident, and at points he was sort of laughing himself.
So I think you'd have to give the other housemates some slack for thinking that Joel wasn't as distressed as he made out afterwards if at the time he appeared to be playing along with the joke. It's how it would have looked to them.
If people describe Joel as a victim, that throws up all sorts of connotations which may not be a reliable way of seeing the situation.”
“The problem here is that some people are calling Joel a 'victim'. Which implies that a crime has been committed.
Even in BB's reprimanding of Aaron they spoke of how his actions could be seen to be offensive, they didn't tell Aaron that he had committed a crime.
I watched Joel throughout the interaction again, and he was smiling pretty much throughout the incident, and at points he was sort of laughing himself.
So I think you'd have to give the other housemates some slack for thinking that Joel wasn't as distressed as he made out afterwards if at the time he appeared to be playing along with the joke. It's how it would have looked to them.
If people describe Joel as a victim, that throws up all sorts of connotations which may not be a reliable way of seeing the situation.”
It was a nervous, desperate laugh rather than "I'm enjoying this, I'll play along" laugh. He was caught in situation where he was in a room where barely anyone likes him and enjoyed him being put on the spot by one person he had considered a friend. He could have got aggressive or he could have ran off to teacher but both of those responses would have landed him in hot water, potentially with Big Brother and definitely with other Housemates. He did try to remove himself from the situation by going to the bathroom but the other Housemates just encouraged Aaron further for their own cheap entertainment while he was away; if he'd removed himself for longer it would have got worse.
His age also came into play as well; older people with more experience may have known how to deal with Aaron but he simply didn't. He said as much in the Diary Room when he said something along the lines of 'I didn't know how to stop it'. But just because Aaron made a prat of himself aided and abetted by the rest of the House doesn't mean Joel should change his ways or be blamed at all for what happened. Maybe one of the more mature Housemates or Big Brother should have seen the issue and stepped in early but the former didn't care and the latter probably wanted the viewers a controversial incident would bring in.
Originally Posted by Littlegreen42:
“What Sarah's saying is completely wrong, even if Joel was openly gay and dressing in women's clothes etc - how does that give anybody else the right to push boundaries?”
“What Sarah's saying is completely wrong, even if Joel was openly gay and dressing in women's clothes etc - how does that give anybody else the right to push boundaries?”
She didn't say it gave anyone the right. She even said she didn't have a problem with Aaron's removal.
So she acknowledges that Aaron's behaviour wasn't on, so I don't see why she has any further issue. Joel has not encouraged that from Aaron at all. Sadly I'm not shocked that at least one of them in there is victim blaming.
Originally Posted by Alrightmate:
“And what also makes me skeptical is that at times in there Joel has not been a shrinking violet when it comes to making comments to other housemates. He has very much shown an assertive side when telling other housemates to their faces that he doesn't like them. So this idea that he has an inability to display assertiveness when required doesn't ring true with me.
See him in the debating task? he was great. He came across as very assertive and more than capable of holding his own.”
“And what also makes me skeptical is that at times in there Joel has not been a shrinking violet when it comes to making comments to other housemates. He has very much shown an assertive side when telling other housemates to their faces that he doesn't like them. So this idea that he has an inability to display assertiveness when required doesn't ring true with me.
See him in the debating task? he was great. He came across as very assertive and more than capable of holding his own.”
I think in 'debating' situations ' Joel is very self assured and confident. I do think that he is sexually inexperienced and naïve - all this Aaron stuff is new territory to him. He really didn't know how to handle it - the fact that all the others were laughing just served to confuse him IMO.
He comes over as very pompous and confident (as he is to a point) but his life experience is limited.
Originally Posted by Veri:
“She didn't say it gave anyone the right. She even said she didn't have a problem with Aaron's removal.”
“She didn't say it gave anyone the right. She even said she didn't have a problem with Aaron's removal.”
But she was insinuating that because Joel was wearing women's clothes, that was almost like giving Aaron the green light to make a move?
A very stupid comment from Sarah!
Shame I wanted her to stay.
Originally Posted by Macksy:
“Glad she has finally shown the snide side - I've felt like the only person who could see through her, with her digs and sly vendettas against those she took against. I think she's toxic.”
“Glad she has finally shown the snide side - I've felt like the only person who could see through her, with her digs and sly vendettas against those she took against. I think she's toxic.”
youre not alone macksy, i too saw that side and was waiting for the spotty cow to slip up.
Originally Posted by Alrightmate:
“Is it a terrible thing to say?
Isn't it possible that there's an element of truth to what she said and that there are no innocent parties here?”
“Is it a terrible thing to say?
Isn't it possible that there's an element of truth to what she said and that there are no innocent parties here?”
No innocent parties? Seriously? I'm absolutely gobsmacked. I wonder if that means when Sarah wears a bikini she's obviously inviting someone to sexually pester her?
I can't believe she, as a woman and believe one who studied/studies law, said that. I also can't believe you did either.
Originally Posted by Alrightmate:
“Is it a terrible thing to say?
Isn't it possible that there's an element of truth to what she said and that there are no innocent parties here?”
“Is it a terrible thing to say?
Isn't it possible that there's an element of truth to what she said and that there are no innocent parties here?”
Are you for real?
I know many straight men, at parties, where alcohol is consumed, to think its a laugh to put on an item of their wives clothing and parade about for the amusement of everyone in the room. For a laugh. That does not mean that they want another man gay or straight to touch them, to put their genitals near their face or get in their bed.
Joel has been saying no to Aaron for the last two weeks. What moron would think Aaron was justified in his actions because Joel put a skirt on last week? Sarah is a disgrace.
The tragic thing is that because she is so strident and know it all, there are probably some in that house who will agree with her.
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