Trying to ward off sexual advances (for want of better word) is very different to discussing personality traits or political attributes - people do not act in the same way.

Yes, you're right and I think that is because Joel actually likes Aaron as a friend and as a companion.

It is possible that Joel likes Aaron but Aaron did go too far and was rightly ejected and that there is some truth in what Sarah says. It's complex but people just want it to be black and white.

The same sort of logic used to blame rape victims for their attackers actions. Disgusting.

I rewatched it a couple of times last night while making forum posts, to refresh my memory of what happened.

I think that at first it was at least a lot easier to see it as just Aaron messing around in fun and Nick not much minding and even joining in. For instance, after the first thing we see Aaron do, Joel chases him back to his bed and does an air kick at his retreating rear.

But Aaron goes on and on, and by the time Aaron says "look at you scratching your nipple" and Nick replies, with some anger or irritation and admonishing pointing, "I wasn't scratching my nipple; I was scratching my chest", the atmosphere is much more uncomfortable, though some of the other HMs are still laughing. Yet even then Joel throws a pillow at him, which could seem to be participating in play; and he laughed at some things after that.

I don't think Joel should have had to make it clearer that he wanted it to stop, but I do think he could have. As you pointed out, he's shown at other times that he's no shrinking violet when it comes to making comments to other housemates and has been assertive.

Meanwhile, it was late at night; the HMs who were most wake and active were laughing; they may just not have picked up on the change soon enough.

Yes It's a terrible thing to say and No it's not possible there's an element of truth in what she said. What exactly is she implying? Is it that because Joel was wearing women's clothing that means he is gay? Even if that were true is she saying that because Joel is gay he must fancy Aaron? Is she implying that gay men are not too fussy and will go with anyone whether they fancy them or not? Surely that's insulting. Whatever Joel's sexuality (not sure he really knows himself yet) he made it quite clear he didn't care for Aaron's sexual attention. Hell, even in the truth or dare thing he wouldn't kiss him! There's just no justification for trying to blame Joel for Aaron's behaviour.

To me Sarah comes across as STFU Carole mark II. Controlling the kitchen, treating them like her "children". Telling people off for doing what she herself does.

Had to LOL at her telling someone to butt out, when she got outraged when Eileen told her to butt out.

sarah was right about one thing, and the most important part:

joel did not effectively get his message of No to aaron clearly enough. you do not smirk if you want to be serious and you do not say it in a nicey jokingly half hearted way. if he wants to get into politics he'll have to be a much better communicator. what aaron did couldnt have happened to any other hm besides maybe nick because everyone else can deliver the message properly

Why are you restricting it to debating? I gave a clear example of Joel being outspoken about other housemates with them present. He's done it more than once.

I accept that the others laughing will have affected his perception and made him feel awkward. But the whole point of wind-ups, which is how it looked to me, are to make someone feel awkward. How sinister it was is another matter.
On this occasion I didn't detect malice, it came across as though everything was seen as being in the spirit of fun.
Once BB gets involved though the context changes dramatically.

I can't claim to know the ins and outs about what was going through Aaron and Joel's minds, but from what I saw I don't think it's a cut and dried case that Joel is a 'victim' and that Aaron has committed an offence. The nature of it and the atmosphere at the time didn't suggest that to me.

I think Joel made it quite clear that Aaron was crossing the line. Besides if that happened between Danny and Sarah I doubt the rest of the housemates would be laughing and egging Danny on!

Did it seem like that to you? Because to me it seemed like he couldn't punch Aaron and not get thrown out so he threw the pillow at him.

Aaron is an experienced sexual being who boasts of 200 sexual experiences, Joel is a teenager with no sexual experience.

No it would not. Oddschecker reports the odds at betting sites, and those sites that have odds for this eviction have odds for all the HMs who are up; Sarah wasn't even the favourite to go. So showing only Sarah is down to a bug of some sort at Oddschecker.

Terrible is an understatement. Hope she's out and pulled up for that comment.

Did you ever feel mortified and just smile uncontrollably, in the hope that the situation passes, especially in a room full of people? Joel's discomfort at this stage was clearly obvious to me. He possibly didn't get angry because he believed nothing beyond this (early stage taunting) was going to happen and he couldn't leave (possibly locked in?) -it was obvious he wanted to.

The others facilitated things getting worse by egging a drunken Aaron on, Harriet with her gesticulating and the likes of Danny and Sarah by laughing and goading. There is the fact that a number of them don't like Joel, and favour Aaron, so were using the situation for their own gains. Without some of this and the fuel of drink, I doubt if Aaron would have pushed it so far, as he and Joel do sometimes get on. But he did and has suffered the consequences.

Sarah is now justifying this in her head, by blaming Joel. She has had it in for him since that first task.

I quite like Sarah, but I thought she was bang out of order here

Never mind putting any blame on Joel, anyone present who either encouraged Aaron or kept quiet and didn't stop it shares the blame. And Sarah was one of them.

Big Brother are also very much at fault for not stepping in much sooner.

And yes. Aaron deserved to be kicked out.

Well this has certainly cleared something up for me. I've been kind of on the fence with Sarah since the beginning. Couldn't make up my mind if I liked her or not. Her comments to Joel have knocked me off that fence and I hope she goes tonight. I think that was wicked of her. I'm sure Joel already feels bad about Aaron's exit (not that he should be blaming himself) without her making him feel worse!

Same. I'm really disappointed in her. I thought the way shed been handling Harriet showed that she could be objective, even when it came to her bessies. Clearly not. She really dislikes Joel doesn't she?

He said NO repeatedly. Does no not mean no where you are from?
There was no ambiguity to Joel telling Aaron no no no, go back to your bed and to flat out stop.

Joel in fact had told Aaron at every turn to stop with the sex stuff. How many times did he need to tell Aaron no before Aaron got the message then? Cause for me it only needed saying ONCE. Joel has told Aaron that he isn't gay, that he isn't interested in sexual banter or innuendo and had told him that he would NOT kiss him only hours earlier even on a dare.

I don't understand what more Joel could do short of punch him and get himself kicked out. They were LOCKED in that room.

Interesting that you think Aaron could have also done that to the other TEENAGER in the house. Are teenagers considered fair game now?

Exactly.

Joel may be verbally gifted and able to pontificate on different things with ease (he's not long out of school and it's his forte) - however he is ill prepared on how to handle unconventional (or even conventional) sexual advances. Because he uses big words and speaks with conviction people are confusing this with maturity. He isn't much more than a child.

Sarah's point was that she would make it clearer: “No one in this house would do that to me because I would have made it extremely, unequivocally clear that that was not on.”

That sounds fair enough. I suppose it could be seen that it started out lighthearted enough but then at some point it went a bit wrong.
Harriet's involvement in this shouldn't be underestimated. Because without other housemates encouraging it to continue it may have died down a lot sooner than it did.

It needed to stop at some point, but for some reason nobody was prepared to stop and instead it was encouraged.
God knows what BB were playing at by allowing it to go on. Usually BB nip things in the bud when they feel that something should be stopped before it escalates. Often they stop someone when they're just thinking about throwing a glass of water at someone else, and people think BB are spoilsports, but in this case BB just allowed this to go on as if they themselves were entertained by it.
They could have stopped this as soon as it began.

He told him to stop. The rest is irrelevant. Stop means stop. stop is not an ambiguous word.

Clear or clearer. It doesn't matter which. The point is Aaron made it clear enough and Sarah has no business implying Joel was encouraging him.

I'm trying to think of a recent comparable situation, and I thought of Perez chasing Hopkins around threatening to lick her face.
BB intervened didn't they? But how long did they allow it to continue?

Whatever! She's just pressed because her pet gay is gone.

I agree. Totally unnecessary for her to have commented at all. Spiteful Sarah.