I think it's also worth being reminded that Aaron was on her 'team'.

doesn't change my mind i agree with sarah

oh well Sarah can go tonight too after reading that, poor Joel must feel bad enough without miss im so perfect putting her tuppence worth in, i hope shes asked about those comments too, Glad Joel will have a least another week in the house over some of them that seem to think they are in charge, *sarah harriett danny* need to go tonight

Sarah is 100% correct, glad someone is telling the truth. I thought Joel wanted a bit of Aaron's d until it all kicked off last night.

Talk about being ambiguous with your sexuality, Joel came across to me as being a totally repressed and sexually frustrated gay man.

It matters if you want to understand what Sarah said.

Joel didn't make it clear enough to get Aaron to stop; she thinks she would have.

I think Joel made it clear enough so that Aaron should have stopped, but that's a different issue.

So did anyone hear her voicing concerns about Joel wearing women's clothing before this all happened? If you connect the dots - now that Aaron has been removed from the house for his actions it comes to light she has issues with Joel wearing women's clothes.

To me that pretty clearly ties it together and she's basically saying that Joel invited the attention by what he wore at times. I don't really see where she has a leg to stand on by separating the two, unless of course she's been upset about the women's clothing thing and I've missed it all.

Joel doesn't feel bad about Aaron going, & there was a blink and you miss it smirk from him when he found out.

Yes I suppose I concede that BB was within their rights to eject Aaron. But I do feel that a warning would have been more appropriate.
However, due to what Joel said in the diary room I think that BB felt like they had no option but to eject him. The words and terminology which Joel was using would mean that BB would leave themselves open to potential legal problems if they didn't eject Aaron.

I agree, that it is quite complex. Because for one we don't really know what was going through Aaron and Joel's minds, and there are the complications of other people being party to the events, and nobody including BB intervening sooner to nip things in the bud so that they didn't escalate into a problem.

Excellent post.

What on earth gave you that idea? I think it was pretty clear that Joel wanted no such thing.

You sound as confused and deluded as poor old Aaron. He did come over as a bit dim but I thought it was a bit of an act - perhaps it really wasn't after all.

I understand what you are saying but perhaps Sarah should look inwards if she wants to blame anyone. If she and the others hadn't been encouraging him perhaps Aaron would have stopped sooner. Seems to me Joel is the only person who was in that room who has nothing to blame himself for in this sad story.

the last thing you put there with that stupid red face smiley had nothing to do with what i'm saying. i guess i'll address that stupid last line first:

no stop right there. i said was aaron wouldnt have been able to do it to any hm because they can all stand up for themselves and if they said No to him the message would be clear to all. people like nick and joel cannot stand up for themselves and wouldnt have been effective in getting their message across. for example no doubt harriet, or any other hm on the end of what aaron was doing would have shouted and got their messsage clear to him it wasnt on what he was doing. at no point did aaron or any of the hms that were laughing think that joel was being serious when he told him to stop. that is a failure on his part in communicating the message. worrying for a wannabe politician

joel's message of No to aaron meant little because of the way it was delivered. joel was not assertive and had a smile on his face and encouraged more of aarons behavior by chasing after him and throwing a pillow in a playful sort of way. no other hms if they wanted to get aaron off their back would do that. they would be clear in the message.

now you need to explain your accusation in that last line to me. i have addressed it. they are not fair game, stop putting words in my mouth

I understand what you are saying but delivery is key here, you can give someone in this situation advice on how to handle it better, by saying, for example, how you would handle it and how he could handle something similar in future, whilst stressing it's not their fault and they will learn from it. You shouldn't really imply it's their fault for not being clear enough, especially when they are younger, less experienced and shouldn't be expected to know better.

I do think she's being unfair on him in this conversation and letting her dislike of him/ like of Aaron get in the way of her objectivity.

I see where Sarah's coming from in that Joel didn't set clear boundaries throughout this ordeal but the way she's going about things isn't going to do herself any favors with the viewers as it's not clear enough to where people won't see that as victim blaming or whatever. People generally look for anything to pounce on, stuff like that opens the door for it... she needed to back off a bit and choose her words more carefully.

Well yes you'd be entitled to feel disgusted if Aaron raped Joel.
But he didn't rape him.

What you said!

This..

She's stuck up for her friend in a situation where had it been another person, I don't think she would've said what she did.

Putting aside Aaron being removed, she's basically telling Joel he should take some blame because of his dressing up, he's encouraged it.

Wrong and very silly thing to say. In my opinion anyway.

Doesn't it?

I need a new tactic.

He didn't have to do either. I don't think it makes any sense to see the pillow throwing as having the meaning or intent that punching Aaron would have.

Anyway, I was just trying to explain why the HMs in the room may not have realised how uncomfortable Joel was, or became. But I think it was starting to get through to them.

I completely agree with this, to the extent that I believed (and still do actually) that Joel may have been in the closet.

But Sarah is implying that simply because of that, he was being encouraging?

He always seemed perfectly clear about his boundaries re: Aaron.
He has maintained he is not gay, not attracted to Aaron, would not kiss him during the game, asked him to go back to his own bed, to put his clothes back on etc...
Is it necessary for him to shout to just say what his boundaries are?

P.S. Sarah rather enjoyed Joel's boundaries being crossed, at the time. Where was her moral stance then?

She's one of these housemates who likes to present the impression that they're even handed and fair, even when they're not.

I find it difficult to trust her own motives when it is clear that she had a close-knit group who she always favours, which includes Harriet and Aaron.

Straight after the nominations she rushed up to one of her pack, less as a friend and very much in a team-talk mode.

I don't agree... i always got the perception it was playful and there wasn't a clear set boundary and i think that's obvious by the way others encouraged it. I agree with Sarah's sentiment on that, i don't agree with her choice of wording though... the prancing around in women's clothes was a very unfortunate choice of words for example.

Correct, she was biased. She still harbours ill feelings towards Joel since the first task.

Danny's also mentioned the same thing. I don't doubt that Sarah and Danny have had discussions about this which we haven't seen.