joel and sarah row in tonight's show...

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Vesna

29-05-2015

Originally Posted by Dr. Claw:
“oh ok so you made that first accusation and now you keep listing new accusations of me to things i never said.
stop trolling
1. i dont think certain people are legit targets in the house
2. and i dont pretend it never happened
3. and i'm not excusing it.

nobody thought joel was serious when telling him to stop. not All the other hms in the room, and not bb until much later. that is clearly joels own fault at that part in not being forceful and clear enough in what he was trying to say.
words and commands mean nothing unless you can communicate them properly to other people and is understood by them.
look at other responses in this thread like veri's post 69 for instance. or even the post just before mine here. they're saying what i;m saying: that sarah was right about joel not getting his message through to other people.”

I'm saying Sarah isn't. Her motivation is she wants Joel out as he's not on her "team" and she wanted Aaron in because he is on her "team". She's quite manipulative. IMO

I'm not a group think person. I know what is right and wrong and you nor Veri nor anyone for that matter will sway me in this matter. The gay man whose bedded 200 partners had no right to invade the teenagers personal space. That is my final word on this matter. Aaron was totally wrong and I'm content that he was removed.

brittanywattsBB

29-05-2015

SOME PEOPLE ON HERE ARE SO STUPID!! Firstly people are saying and sarah say that Joel was implying to Aaron that he wanted it because Joel walks around in dresses. first off that is the most dumbest thing I have heard. No1 it still wrong to do what he did if they were together or were flirting it is wrong. Secondly Joel has never in the house ever flirted with Aaron. He didn't kiss him and even told Aaron that he was straight and wasn't attracted to him. I am guessing you all are saying the dress thing is a question on his sexuality. I don't think you know that what you all are actually saying is that joel is gay and is giving signs that he is so aaron did nothing wrong. if u think this than u need a reality check when u are gay or straight or anything it doesn't mean you are attracted to every boy or every girl you see. It doesn't mean you want have sexual experiences with every girl and guy it means you are attracted to men and women not every single one of them. Humans find some people attractive and some unattractive. So the clothes thing is just silly. What Aaron did was wrong joel said stop it doesn't matter is joel was gay straight bi. It doesn't matter if they were sisters brothers or a couple. if that person goes to big brother saying they felt violated or big brother sees it as violation then its wrong.

Nigelk

29-05-2015

Interesting reading... like others, I just want her out now as I feel she's one of the biggest game players in there (and there's a few)... i'm hoping Joel recovers and stays to the end..

Alrightmate

29-05-2015

Originally Posted by Veri:
“I don't think she was implying that.”

What does she mean then?
Because if this was just some larking around in the bedroom for fun, then how does Joel wearing certain clothes leading Aaron on have anything to do with it?

slappers r us

29-05-2015

Originally Posted by Alrightmate:
“Is it a terrible thing to say?
Isn't it possible that there's an element of truth to what she said and that there are no innocent parties here?”

so if a hetro bloke has a job dressing as a woman (Drag artists are not always gay or tranvestites) they should stand by and let themselves open to abuse/molesting/invading of their personal space?

I wonder if sally agrees with comments like saying she wore a short skirt so she deserved it

yes I do think its a bad thing to say

Scarlett Berry

29-05-2015

Originally Posted by brittanywattsBB:
“SOME PEOPLE ON HERE ARE SO STUPID!! Firstly people are saying and sarah say that Joel was implying to Aaron that he wanted it because Joel walks around in dresses. first off that is the most dumbest thing I have heard. No1 it still wrong to do what he did if they were together or were flirting it is wrong. Secondly Joel has never in the house ever flirted with Aaron. He didn't kiss him and even told Aaron that he was straight and wasn't attracted to him. I am guessing you all are saying the dress thing is a question on his sexuality. I don't think you know that what you all are actually saying is that joel is gay and is giving signs that he is so aaron did nothing wrong. if u think this than u need a reality check when u are gay or straight or anything it doesn't mean you are attracted to every boy or every girl you see. It doesn't mean you want have sexual experiences with every girl and guy it means you are attracted to men and women not every single one of them. Humans find some people attractive and some unattractive. So the clothes thing is just silly. What Aaron did was wrong joel said stop it doesn't matter is joel was gay straight bi. It doesn't matter if they were sisters brothers or a couple. if that person goes to big brother saying they felt violated or big brother sees it as violation then its wrong.”

..headache inducing. Sorry.

Alrightmate

29-05-2015

Originally Posted by slappers r us:
“so if a hetro bloke has a job dressing as a woman (Drag artists are not always gay or tranvestites) they should stand by and let themselves open to abuse/molesting/invading of their personal space?

I wonder if sally agrees with comments like saying she wore a short skirt so she deserved it

yes I do think its a bad thing to say”

I've had subsequent thoughts about it as the thread went on.

dialectic

29-05-2015

Originally Posted by onfencewithrach:
“]That's not including the subtext in my view, however... there's things leading up to that moment it's not a singular moment in time but many connected moments.”

I agree and we witnessed enough moments leading up to this of Joel saying 'No', in as friendly a way as possible to Aaron, during the dare(when he said no to the kiss), at the bath (when he asked him not to get in), on the bed (he asked Aaron to return to his own) he asked Aaron to put clothes on( as Aaron was gesticulating towards him)
At this stage, bar getting angry (Joel seems to be more the calm type) or leaving the room(they were possibly locked in) there were few options for Joel but to grin and bear it and then Aaron went on(jeered on by others) and over-stepped the mark.

Quote:
“I feel the reason people were encouraging it was obvious, to me at least... as aforementioned that it had been nurtured as playful in perception through various instances... if there was a clear boundary set where it was understood the line in which Joel was "violated" so to speak when crossed... i'm fairly certain someone would've stood up and stopped the situation from escalating.”

I'm sure there were times (perhaps even prior to that night) that Joel himself took it that way and laughed, while still maintaining his boundaries, by iterating to Aaron that he is not gay and so is not interested. Why he was forced to have to protest his sexuality to someone who is continually pestering him sexually, is bothering in itself. Has Aaron targeted the other males in the house with his 'amusing'

provocations, because that's what he was doing- provoking.

Quote:
“There's a delicate line to be walked where it becomes victim blaming, that is understood. Which is why i think there definitely should've been some consequences for Aaron but at the same time from my viewpoint and judgement of all that happened i don't think it was fair to be completely removed from the house. Was it fair that Joel was put in that position that he felt crossed a certain line, that wasn't fair either... that's what i'm saying, that i see the unfairness on both sides. However, i feel that the situation could've been handled and resolved in a better way. That's all i'm saying. I see where Sarah's coming from but her passion is betraying her choice of words. She doesn't have the benefit of editing and thinking things out removed from the situation.”

Who knows there could have been more to it that we didn't see, but I think it went beyond any silly 'banter', Joel repeatedly then, and other times, said NO. There was something unsettling about the others encouraging this, and egging Aaron to go further and he did go further. He crossed the line, by any BB standards, when he touched him in the manner he did, after he had been standing over him naked and taunting him.

I feel as if I've just repeated myself loads here and elsewhere on this matter, so I guess there is not much more to say on my part.

niwdeness

29-05-2015

Originally Posted by Angie_Plasty:
“Sarah has a point. I don't like any of these HMs any longer but they aren't utterly brain dead and if Joel had made it unequivocally clear that Aaron was upsetting him then the atmosphere would have turned and the "joke" would have been over quick sharp.

It's the same with people pissing Danny and Sarah off going on about their 'will they won't they, do they don't they', in the house. They do this because there's a perception, based upon behaviour, that Danny and Sarah "like" each other. That same perception exists, rightly or wrong, about Joel and Aaron. By the same token no one is ribbing Kieran and Chloe and trying to make them kiss/get together because no perception exists that there's anything between them.

This is not to excuse Aaron's behaviour. He's an utter ****. He's been bullying Joel for some time now and Joel didn't know how to handle it, being so young and inexperienced. I said a while ago about Joel's mixed messages re Aaron and said that anything other than than a forthright and unequivocal NO! is encouragement to an idiot and to that idiot's mates and will only lead to greater problems down the line.

I appreciate that Joel didn't see/understand that and I'm not "blaming" him, just saying that his inability (for whatever reason) to tell Aaron to **** off right from the start, like most of us would have done, is a factor in how we got to this point.”

Amen.

slappers r us

29-05-2015

Originally Posted by Alrightmate:
“I've had subsequent thoughts about it as the thread went on.”

whoops

that will teach me to read right through the thread

dorsetwasp

29-05-2015

Originally Posted by Alrightmate:
“And what also makes me skeptical is that at times in there Joel has not been a shrinking violet when it comes to making comments to other housemates. He has very much shown an assertive side when telling other housemates to their faces that he doesn't like them. So this idea that he has an inability to display assertiveness when required doesn't ring true with me.
See him in the debating task? he was great. He came across as very assertive and more than capable of holding his own.”

BIB Good point, I've been uncomfortable at times in how blunt he's been with some of the HM's and what he thinks of them.

shelleyj89

29-05-2015

Short of actually telling someone that they can swing their penis in your personal space, dry hump you when naked, get in your bed naked and continue to flash their penis at you, I don't see how anything can encourage someone doing that to you.

dorsetwasp

29-05-2015

Originally Posted by Alrightmate:
“Why are you restricting it to debating? I gave a clear example of Joel being outspoken about other housemates with them present. He's done it more than once.

I accept that the others laughing will have affected his perception and made him feel awkward. But the whole point of wind-ups, which is how it looked to me, are to make someone feel awkward. How sinister it was is another matter.
On this occasion I didn't detect malice, it came across as though everything was seen as being in the spirit of fun.
Once BB gets involved though the context changes dramatically.

I can't claim to know the ins and outs about what was going through Aaron and Joel's minds, but from what I saw I don't think it's a cut and dried case that Joel is a 'victim' and that Aaron has committed an offence. The nature of it and the atmosphere at the time didn't suggest that to me.”

Totally agree with the above.

Cornchips

29-05-2015

All those who are suggesting Joel should have done a better job at telling Aaron to do one -have you thought that is the reason Aaron picked on Joel for his display? He wouldn't have dared with some of the others. Instead picks on the more vuknerable. It makes it no better for Aaron IMHO

meglosmurmurs

29-05-2015

The idea that Joel should have given Aaron quick direct commands to keep away makes it sound like Aaron is some kind of dog and not a grown person with common-sense.

Alrightmate

29-05-2015

Originally Posted by slappers r us:
“whoops

that will teach me to read right through the thread ”

It's okay. I do the same thing all the time.

cah

29-05-2015

What a disgusting thing to say

''It's your fault you was sexually assulted for wearing a short skirt etc..''

Sarah with that one sentence has signed her own eviction warrant ,...Silly cow .

dialectic

29-05-2015

Originally Posted by meglosmurmurs:
“The idea that Joel should have given Aaron quick direct commands to keep away makes it sound like Aaron is some kind of dog and not a grown person with common-sense.”

Yes, it's like -' how dare Joel not raise his voice '

emptybox

29-05-2015

If Joel didn't want his 'personal space' invaded he really shouldn't have gone on Big Brother.
What if there's a task where BB chains them together? Are they allowed to say
"sorry, I'm not doing this as it invades my personal space"

To my mind it was a very small incident, and Aaron only overstepped the mark right at the end.
And it was done in good humour. No aggression at all.

I can see that Joel might have been a little uncomfortable, but he really over-egged it when complaining to BB.

boy_number_8

29-05-2015

If they show this before the voting lines close she will pretty much be dead certain to go.

dialectic

29-05-2015

Originally Posted by emptybox:
“If Joel didn't want his 'personal space' invaded he really shouldn't have gone on Big Brother.
What if there's a task where BB chains them together? Are they allowed to say
"sorry, I'm not doing this as it invades my personal space"

To my mind it was a very small incident, and Aaron only overstepped the mark right at the end.
And it was done in good humour. No aggression at all.

I can see that Joel might have been a little uncomfortable, but he really over-egged it when complaining to BB.”

BIB Yes, if he is to be chained to a naked man who has been menacingly pestering him for weeks.....perhaps in some twisted parallel universe it would be deemed OK -it still wouldn't be entertaining.

Stellen11

29-05-2015

Originally Posted by i am god:
“no doubt replys to your post will look to make sarahs row harriets fault”

No doubt.

emptybox

29-05-2015

Originally Posted by dialectic:
“BIB Yes, if he is to be chained to a naked man who has been menacingly pestering him for weeks.....perhaps in some twisted parallel universe it would be deemed OK -it still wouldn't be entertaining.”

Menacingly pestering him??

They'd been friends up till that point, if you hadn't noticed.

dialectic

29-05-2015

Originally Posted by emptybox:
“Menacingly pestering him??
They'd been friends up till that point, if you hadn't noticed.”

On one level ( and usually when drunk) he was pestering him (always about his sexuality) and menacingly so, because Joel has tried to correct him and asked him to lay off on several occasions. They have been friendly at other times - I wouldn't say friends, they hardly know each other.

Littlegreen42

29-05-2015

Originally Posted by emptybox:
“Menacingly pestering him??
They'd been friends up till that point, if you hadn't noticed.”

and they had been getting closer that past 24 hours.

This video was posted Wednesday morning... Joel jokes at the end that if Aaron left on Friday, he would cry and admit his "underlying feelings"...

Now, if Aaron wasn't that emotionally astute to those type of things - could he have believed that to be true?

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