Although they did that episode mini episode with another notorious monster.

The two doctors was a waste of troughtona availability. So much wrong in that era I'm surprised he agreed to do it.

Going back to why it would a bad idea to even consider a full on 13 doctor special, apart from all the theoretical problems already stated, I think the 'saving gallifrey' scene in day of the doctor already stands as proof of how it's hard to come up with a reason for it, and still make the plot credible, as that scene is kind of cool to see all the doctors and 13 TARDISes around gallifrey, but think about it for a second and it dosen't make a bit of sense.

The doctor never knew anything about the time war that was to come before he was the 8th doctor, yet here we have a scenario where he must have gone back and told himself as the 1st doctor enough about the time war for him to start the calculations then, apparently meaning the 1st doctor and subsequently 2-8 as well, knowing what was eventually to come and thus completely contradicting the fact that we know he didn't know then.

Some people seem to explain it away by somehow viewing it as doctors 1-9 only involevement as being taken out of their timeline for a few moments to help and then being put back and forgetting everything about the whole situation, but that dosen't make any sense either as the person on gallifrey said the calculations would take hundreds of years, and the doctor replied that he had been working on it a very long time, then the other doctors appeared straight after that line, giving the implication that he had been working on it in the background for his entire life. Yes they would forget the actual event, and whether or not it worked as a result of all being together, but not the working on the calculations for the event.

Then you have the problem of the fact that the doctor couldn't have actually told his past self anything as they would have forgotten as soon as he left, that being the nature of multi doctor interaction, so he would have had to somehow, after deciding to try and save gallifrey, go and find someone who wasn't him, and take them back to the first doctor to give him the information, and somehow convince him to make the trip at some point after every time he regenerated and actually send the independent person back to every incarnation to tell them it was time to make the trip again (whilst somehow knowing the ideal point to safely take them out of their timeline).


So my point is, for the fun of seeing 13 doctors in one scene, you have a scene that, to me seems to me at best ridiculously highly unlikely at best, but downright nonsensical and illogical at worst, given what we know, and that was just one scene. As such it serves as hard evidence to me why even attempting to do a whole episode with that many doctors would just be a complete nightmare.

As a counter argument: it was a Time War and it has been stated numerous times that time can be rewritten. Who's to say this wasn't one of those scenarios where time was rewritten?

I don't think it's too hard to assume many other Time Lords' timelines had been rewritten during the war anyway either for good by the Time Lords or for bad by the Daleks. If you're going to fight in time, logic dictates that there will be anomalies with previous timelines that used to exist and therefore new timelines created.

So what you are saying is that the 1-10 Doctors were pulled out of their time lines, thus changing their history and memories and their time lines, in order to help save Gallifrey, which would alter and change everything. However, since this didn't happen until the great event at Gallifrey, then there was no way for The Doctor to remember it until the memories had been created. Thus, after saving Gallifrey, he would be able to remember each and every previous incarnation's individual memories of helping in that event from a first person point of view (since they are him), but that he would not be able to remember that whatsoever until the event had happened overall, even though he was a later incarnation, since the memories had yet to be created. Is this correct?

Man, that gets kind of complicated. LOL!

Possibly.

I think it was actually the TARDIS that was doing the calculations. The First Doctor just sets it in motion after hearing from his future selves. (Which he - and every other Doctor - forgot.)

It was the same principle as the War Doctor setting his sonic screwdriver to calculate the wooden door opening, which was completed by the time he was the Eleventh Doctor. The calculation had been going on in the background throughout the Doctor's subsequent incarnations without his knowledge.

This isn't just 'time can be rewritten' for one event though is it, as I detailed in my post it is a whole bunch of things which if you take that it could even be possible at all, then the doctors entire life would be completely different. He'd know about the time war from the time of being the 1st doctor meaning he may well live his entire life differently, possibly even dedicating his life to trying to stop the war ever happening rather than having the life we know, then when he got to being mcgann (if he even had the same faces and same regenerations because it's probably highly unlikely when his life would have taken a different path) he wouldn't care about the war or fighting in it, and likely wouldn't have chosen 'warrior' when the end of his 8th life came as the 'sisterhood of karn' would be saying all the things they did about the universe needing him, and he'd just be like 'nah, it's all good, I don't have to bother fighting, I just have to carry on with these calculations i've been doing most of my life and it'll all work out' as such, had he got to that point I think he would have regenerated into something entirely different from the war doctor. Then we have Eccleston. No more would he be the battle scarred doctor, haunted by the memories of war, but rather he'd likely be a lot more content, just having adventures, working on the calculations in his spare time, knowing that they are something to do with how the war stopped, even if he can't remember how, but he'd certainly have no reason to think he destroyed gallifrey, especially when he'd have to know, and would always have had to known what the calculations were for to have been able to do them in the first place.

What I'm saying is to have the scene even sort of make sense, you would have to consider that the whole of the doctors entire life had been rewritten and nothing in his life or any adventure before day of the doctor would have happened as his life, with that knowledge, would likely have been very different. Even if you accept that premise then it still dosen't make sense as if his life had been different he would have likely regenerated at different times and possibly have less incarnations by the time, or even different faces that what we know.

Any which way I look at it, the more you think about the scene and the implications, the less and less sense it makes.



It's not even that simple though. People seem to keep focusing just on the fact they were pulled out of their timelines to help out with the event, but that wasn't all that happened. The character from the war council said the calculations would take hundreds of years to which the 11th doctor replied that he had 'been working on it a very long time' and at that moment we see all the past doctors appear. It was a clear indication that he had been working on the calculations in his spare time practically his entire life since he was the 1st doctor. Even if you could be persuaded to believe that the doctor always secretly knew the time war was coming one day and was happy to do nothing to stop or change it other than work on these calculations then I believe, as I have detailed just above where i've quoted you, that this knowledge would have had a massive impact on his life and would have affected at least a few of the incarnations massively, if those incarnations were even to exist in a timeline where he'd always had information of his future and as such may have well lived differently

I don't know. I like the explanation above by "be more pacific" for that:


I think it was actually the TARDIS that was doing the calculations. The First Doctor just sets it in motion after hearing from his future selves. (Which he - and every other Doctor - forgot.)

It was the same principle as the War Doctor setting his sonic screwdriver to calculate the wooden door opening, which was completed by the time he was the Eleventh Doctor. The calculation had been going on in the background throughout the Doctor's subsequent incarnations without his knowledge.

Standard agency policy, there would be a "who blinks first" stand off, where most would hold-off signing up to the special, the last man to sign up has a better bargaining chip i.e., "Well without me you aint got the full set !".

This was employed by a certain actor in the Torchwood franchise - He held out until the very end and hence negotiated a good fee

Whilst I agree that this idea of the TARDIS doing the calculations whilst the doctor is unaware he ever set it in motion is a good idea, and indeed probably the way i'd think of it the next time I watch it, to stop the scene bugging me so much, the fact still remains that the idea is just something you've come up with in your head. Nothing in the episode suggests it or backs it up, and indeed the doctor even says 'Ive been working on it a very long time'.

What I'm trying to say is that although that explanation is the best one i've heard to try and make sense of the scene, the fact remains that just based on what the episode says or even suggests their is no official clear explanation.


Going back to why I brought the scene up in the first place, the reason I brought it up was to make the point about how the scene seems to me to serve as a point why a 13 doctor episode would be a bad idea. having 13 doctors in one scene was messy and complex, and considering the amount of conversation that can be had on it, and the different interpretations, it seems to me that even if you can come up with a way to make it make sense for yourself, you can still probably agree the whole thing isn't exactly simple, and would probably be lost on a lot of viewers. I think that it proves the point that if all that confusion can come from the writers having to come up with an excuse to have 13 doctors all in one scene, then any potential episode that would try to have that many doctors throughout the episode would be a complete logistical nightmare with the more attentive of us spending our time making all the little or big errors (of which their would surely be some in an undertaking of that size) make sense in our own minds somehow, and more casual viewers being simply bored by such an overcomplicated mess, as I believe they'd have to have the doctors spouting jargon through most of the potential episode just to try and make it all make some degree of sense for why their would need to be 13 of him there and as such their would be little time for actual fun and adventure.

I believe it is suggested that the sonic screwdriver trick will be repeated on a much larger scale. The reason why the Daleks should be scared is "This time there's three of us!" which harks back to the screwdriver scene.

Also, the way the First Doctor says "Commencing calculations" sounds more like he's activating a program than starting to work things out manually.

It is a good theory, but just speculation all the same. As I have said, I think the fact that the whole thing is open to such interpretation rather than being clear and simple shows the potential logistical problems of a whole 13 doctor episode, which was my main point really.

Despite my trying to figure out who the mess can work, I do agree with your main point. The brief cameos by the older Doctors was fine, but trying to do a Five Doctor story with 13 or more Doctors would be a nightmare.

Another thought on how the computations might have been done:

Maybe that is why Clara's shard insisted that The Doctor take that particular Tardis. Maybe Clara had already put in the programming and was then leaving The Doctor with that particular Tardis, which would then give that particular Tardis over 2,000 years to figure out the calculations.

I prefer the first idea of the doctor starting it then not remembering rather than the Clara idea, as i'd rather think that the doctor was responsible completely for saving it rather than Clara having a hand in yet another big important thing. Your Clara idea is a completely fine and logical idea, but since it's all about interpretation in this case i'd rather not think of it that way just as a personal preference.

I was so glad to hear that original idea though as I can now watch that scene in future and think of it as in their is at least one possible explanation of how it makes sense rather than the other times I watched it and just couldn't think of any way it made sense.

Generally, I agree with you. The whole Clara-is-everywhere-throughout-all-of-The-Doctor's-space-and-time-continuum thing where it is not he that is great, but it is her that is saving him always and in all times bit was, for me, the last straw.

I just wish that Moffat would leave. He continues to emasculate a once great hero and make him nothing more than a crying, afraid of the dark, willing to be slapped and bossed around, sidekick in his own show wuss.

I am sick of it.

Down with Moffat.

Down with Clara Who.

Bring back The Doctor as an actual hero who doesn't need a woman to save him (not only in every single episode now, but in every single episode ever in the past). Geez.

I take it you didn't watch Doctor Who between 2005-2010 then?

He already is the 'actual hero'. Or did you miss everything before and after Name of the Doctor?

Yep. The Great Intelligence invades the Doctor's timestream via a 'wound' to attempt to overturn the Doctor's victories and 'poison' past events. Splintered Clara is the antitode there to stop it. Whether that's a good concept or not is obviously debateable, but the Doctor's past victories remain his for sure.

Apparently, Clara went back and it was she who helped him out whenever he needed it. She sent him to the correct Tardis, she saved him when he was hanging from the ledge, etc., etc., etc.. Essentially, every single victory that The Doctor has ever had is now tainted with "Well, he was probably only able to do it because a splinter Clara helped him". Sigh.


And by the way, yes, I hate the fact that it has been like that since the revival, it just has become ever much more so since Moffat took over. His Amy Williams and then Clara Oswald worship is beyond belief.

I am finally watching Series 8, which I bought a few weeks ago and Clara treats The Doctor like a puppy or an errant child. She slaps him. She says that he doesn't get a vote in his own life. She tells him to listen and to do as he is told. She scares him as a child and now he is afraid of the dark. And the entire show, rather than focusing around having adventures in the Tardis on alien planets, now revolves around her dating life with Danny Pink with The Doctor as a mere afterthought. Geez stinking Louise. Give her her own show if that is what you want, Moffat, but give me The Doctor, not a eunuch.

That's the point. The character is supposed to be a control freak. Moffat has said so himself. And I'd say the Clara splinters just helped the Doctor, not save him.

Oh dear. Not sure if you can have ever watched Doctor Who. You seem to have a few issues with women and gender politics based on a couple of things you've said. Do you know what? Society moved on between 1977 and 2010. And culture did to. So it was decided that maybe half the population of earth should be able to expect to be represented on screen in a way that moved beyond helpless damsel in distress parody and tits out titillation and coquettish giggling for the Dads. Women being portrayed as strong complex dominant characters that sometimes can actually save the big strong men! It's a bloody disgrace isn't it!

The Doctor was never a typical male action hero archetype. You seem to be mistaking him for Bruce Willis or Flash Gordon or God knows what.

And all your complaints basically amount to the fact you don't like complexity or depth in your science fiction. Go and watch Power Rangers or Bayformers 1-4. You've managed to not only completely misunderstand the entire point and subtext of episodes like Listen but you also actually haven't paid attention to much of S8 otherwise you'd realise that the Doctor plays Clara like a fiddle and often feeds her the illusion of power to satisfy her control freak tendencies when in fact he is in control. Of course its not overtly obvious and simple so the subtleties probably passed you by. But Twelve is far from a Eunuch. Maybe you're thinking of simpering self pitying Ten? Yeah. Probably. I'm glad The Rose Show is over.

I have to say I agree with the general sentiments of this post. The 'impossible girl' storyline makes me cringe to think about for many reasons, and I am amongst those who see it as the doctor being robbed of all his past personal victories. Apart from that I just want Clara gone anyway. She was dull in series 7, mostly due to the fact that her life was being used as a plot device meant they couldn't really develop her. Then in series 8 she has been bossy, rude, domineering and all around generally obnoxious. The way the doctor acted around her in many scenes even made it feel like he didn't want her around.

Not to mention the 'Volcano planet' scene. Take a lovingly eccentric, kind person who has shown you nothing but kindness and given you the traveling opportunity of a lifetime and not only threaten to ruin their life and rip away everything they hold dear just to get them to do you a favour, but then actually go through with doing that terrible thing to them (because even though the scene wasn't real, when she thought it was she actually did throw all the keys).

Her exit can't come soon enough for me.

Boy did you get personal quickly. LOL! (Small note: people will be more willing to listen to your statements and opinions with an open mind if you don't insult them in your reply.)

I have been watching Doctor Who since the early 80's starting with Tom Baker (who is still my favorite Doctor) reruns. I have watched nearly every single episode (most of them multiple times.) Tom Baker's companion was Sarah Jane Smith in those reruns. She was hardly the "helpless damsel in distress parody and tits out titillation and coquettish giggling" woman that you mentioned. She was strong, intelligent, resourceful and competent. She is still the fan's favorite companions and one of my favorites (I also have a soft spot for Wilfred).

I have no problem with The Doctor's female companion being competent, smart, clever, resourceful or heroic. I don't have a problem with The Doctor's female companion contributing to a group effort with The Doctor and whomever else is with them (shout out to Harry here) in order to save the day.

What I have a problem with is The Doctor finding Superwoman in every female companion that he picks up. It was bad enough with Rose, but it just keeps escalating. We then had "The Most Important Woman in the Universe" Donna upon whom everything turned. And, now, we have "The Impossible Girl" who apparently has been and always will be there to give The Doctor help in everything because she is throughout his timeline for all eternity.

(I also have no problem with strong women and heroines in general. I am rooting for Katniss Everdeen in The Hunger Games and Tris in Divergent. Make all of the strong female leads that you want, just stop tearing down my male leads at the same time. In other words, lift yourselves up to make parity, don't tear us down.)



(Note, I have watched Series 8 up through "Time Heist", so, no, I don't have all of the nuances down for Series 8. Maybe my tune will change by the end.)

That said, I just can't stand how Clara is treating The Doctor. She rejects him at the beginning because he doesn't look like he once did (the young man that she fancied).. It literally takes 45 minutes of an 80 minute show (Deep Breath) of her agonizing over his change (a grand self-indulgence). She slaps him in the next episode. She tells him that he doesn't get a vote in his own life. She yells at him and tells him to obey her orders. And this is just in the first four episodes. If The Doctor had done this (especially the slap) to any female companion, we would never hear the end of it. I have no problem with equality, but this is just plain domineering. The Doctor is the protagonist of the show. He has been in it for 50+ years. The show should be centered around him, not around Clara. If I wanted to watch a soap opera, I would watch Eastenders or something.

I also hate the direction that the show has taken. The show has always pretty much been about them traveling through all of time and space without knowing much of the time where they were going (Pertwee's era excepted). Now, it has to work around Clara's dating schedule. Rose returned home occasionally. Then the Williams's returned home frequently. Then they spent part of a series mostly at home. Now, the show seems grounded and stuck and centered around the dating habits of a school teacher rather than the roaming adventures of a Time Lord.

Sorry for the long winded post.

Apology accepted.