There's good points being made on both sides here which are getting a bit lost in the OTT fighting. Jamie clearly is a talented magician but the semi-final performance was a horrendous mess, you can't pretend that you were genuinely dealing out random cards if you then have all the props so readily to hand - for example, there was no reason why the glass of water couldn't have been already on the judges' table rather than being so openly brought on by an assistant. It just made it too awkward IMO, which certainly wasn't helped by Simon then asking for the audience member who wrote helicopter, that was horrible. I can't believe no kind soul stuck their hand up for him, I would have done.

I'm torn on the criticism for using ID in the final. I've got one, and it's very easy to master with just a few minutes' practice really, even if you're not that dextrous. But, it's a blinding trick, the effect is amazing, which is what counts. Yes it's readily available, but 99.99% of people don't know that, and they don't know how it works (and even when they do read it here, they'll forget it again within a few months anyway), why the hell does it matter that he used the pairs straight out of the box FFS?! How would it have improved the effect for the general audience if he hadn't?

(Then again I do accept it's a reasonable criticism that a magician in the final should be showing more to set him aside. Hence why I'm torn.)

The boxes and bags thing was also a bit rubbish, and is a valid criticism. There's literally no point of having a bag in a box in a box unless you're demonstrating that "I couldn't possibly have got to the contents". When the magician is then the only person that handles that bag and its contents, it's pointless. I'm going from memory here, so I apologise if this is wrong, but he may as well have loaded the whole lemon into the bag when he put his hand in, he could have at least got Alesha to feel the bag and guess what was inside if he wanted us to believe the lemon was in there the whole time. Even if I am wrong, the thing with a good, well presented, magic trick is that my memory shouldn't work this way, it should be the opposite; I should be left with the impression that he hasn't touched things that he has, because he's properly emphasised what he has/hasn't done and made that stick with me.

I love magic and Jamie was clearly a talented magician as evidenced by the sleights he used well. But probably no moreso than literally hundreds of other magicians working in Britain right now, so it is a bit baffling how he got this far. He didn't seem to have any USP or anything particularly about him, I'm sure many virtually identical magicians fell by the wayside in the process. The big difference seems to be that Simon has suddenly decided that card tricks etc. are now amazing rather than dismissing them without a second thought as he has done in previous years, I can only think I really underestimated how much sway the judges (perhaps Simon in particular) have over how people vote.

I was watching a TV programme of a similar talent show from another country in the middle east. Same types of things, dancing, singing, magicians etc.

A hypnotist came on. He had his stooges etc and he hypnotised them and they did crazy funny things.

Audience clapped. But one judge tore into them. She would have none of it. She screamed her lungs out that this is fake. She correctly called out that there is no talent in arranging a few acting stooges and pretend the hypnotism. Very brave of the judge. The act meekly bowed out.

Judges have a role to weed out stupid cheats. Ours are more keen to showcase their breasts and cry over dog stories.

Is Derren Brown average then? Paul Daniels? Dynamo? David Copperfield?

I'm quite surprised that someone who has been practising (is that the term?) magic for as long as Raven has isn't a lot better at it.

We all know that he clumsily inserted the note into the lemon while he was fumbling around in the bag, but I was surprised that the lemon looked so obviously not fresh and tampered with.

Dynamo is appalling ffs

BIB Well he managed to deceive enough to get to second place, didn't he????

And Matisse deceived the public and won!

Paul Daniels is a fantastic magician, as is Copperfield.

They are in a different league to people who use stooges and camera tricks.

I don't doubt for a second that both of these are indeed fantastic magicians - I agree with you.
BUT - to say that "They are in a different league to people who use stooges and camera tricks" which insinuates that Daniels and Copperfield DON'T use camera tricks is ridiculous!!! They BOTH have used camera tricks!

Copperfield levitating across the Grand Canyon comes to mind - that illusion is fraught with camera trickery (whilst the camera isn't the actual method used, it greatly increases our believability that he 'supposedly' really levitated across the canyon). Many of his other illusion use camera edits/trickery.

As for Paul Daniels, I can't think of an instance where he may have used a camera trick, but I'm sure he has also (I was genuinely amazed by him back in the 70's and 80's.

The point is .... the lemon trick can take as long/short to set up as you like. A card/bill is already in the lemon before the magician even walks on stage; Tony Brent did it in such a way that (a) there was no gaping hole, clearly visible to anyone who had eyes, in the lemon after it was cut and (b) the 'trick' is switching the card/bill in the lemon with the actual card/bill the audience member is expecting.

What Raven appeared to do is create a massive hole in the lemon and push the actual bill through the whole whilst the lemon was in the bag - not very impressive at all.

Also, as others have said, I don't see the relevance of the the boxes in Raven's version either - surely he just needs to show that nothing can get in/out of the bag ? The two boxes just wastes time in having to explain them.

..surely the whole trick would have been better if he had just used a TT instead? That way, he could have cut open a genuine unprepped lemon, stuck in the TT and voila - pull out the signed whatever from within the TT (lemon).

The inside of the Tt would have to be lemony yellow in colour.

In Copperfield's Graffiti Wall illusion, It's Copperfield who takes down, handles, opens and removes the prediction from the envelope at the end of the trick.

Would you call him out on that as you have systematically done to Raven all over this forum for handling the bag at the end of his trick. (Even after showing his hands empty)?

Yet you rate Copperfield and don't hound him and slang him off for doing the same handling of the item at the end of one of his tricks.

It clearly shows that you really don't have the knowledge to mount such a ridiculous argument.

Totally different. We know that Jamie has the note (Alesha handed it to him) so when he conceals his hand in a bag for several seconds, it's really not so amazing when that note then turns out to be in the bag (albeit in a lemon). I expect you will point out how similar the actual mechanics of the two methods actually are rather than being "totally different" (I have no idea, personally) but if so then you'll just illustrate the important nuances missing from Jamie's performance.

But the argument was anyone who uses shop bought tricks is average. That is what you wrote.

Edit: Apologies it was Mitu Pappi that posted that statement.

BIB You contradict yourself twice. If you havent got proof best not to make the claim.

She signed it and gave it to him is that what you mean? In which case he changed it into a piece of paper with "Look in the box""written on it. SO from audience POV its vanished!

Really? As I said as far as audience are concerned the note is gone, he shows his hands empty before reaching in and removing lemon after 3 seconds so yes it is amazing.

That's fine, different opinions - we just have different benchmarks, and (I would say) you're more easily amazed than I am. If you think the note has actually vanished and he isn't stuffing the lemon while his hand is concealed in the bag, I can see why you'd be amazed.

All this talk and yet no one can demonstrate pushing a rolled up note into a lemon(it wasnt rolled up when it switched with the piece of paper!)in 3 seconds.
The two boxes are dramatic effect,makes it seem more impossible for the note to have got inside the lemon. Nest of boxes is a magician staple trick for many years.

You may as well ask why have a prediction in a tube inside a box,why not just have it in your hand. It make for a more interesting trick.

...you know what amazes me?

The fact that a lemon has taken up 11 pages of this thread!!

Now THAT, IS amazing..................!!!!!

How many times do we have to tell you that his hand was not empty. It was bent at the thumb in a amateur fashion. So either note was crooked in there or it was inside a TT and he had cricked the thumb to hide the TT. God help us.

By the way, the note was not rolled, it was folded in his hand and also when taken out of the lemon.

I was referring to in general terms ,I know how the trick was done so no its not amazing to me.

No you dont appear to know. I am a magician of 35 years of experience and my magic circle number is displayed. I know how it was done and i can guarantee you , 20 quid on paypal or not, that you dont know how it was done.

Jesus.He was wearing a thumb tip so his hand was empty was he holding anything?No. Was he palming anything?No. could you see anything in his hand?No. Therefore it was empty in true definition of the word.

You are unbelievable. Trying word confusion now are we, another magic circle manual trick when online defending.