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Jamie Raven was not even that good


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Old 01-06-2015, 23:41
jsmith99
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Yeah I've seen how the invisible deck trick is done. Although it is very impressive considering how simple the idea is, and you still have to have a good memory for numbers/pairs... .................
I wouldn't have thought you needed a good memory. There's only one number involved. Would you need to memorise all the pairs to answer the question : "If a die shows the number 4, what number is on the opposite face".
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Old 02-06-2015, 01:11
Old Endeavour
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I wouldn't have thought you needed a good memory. There's only one number involved. Would you need to memorise all the pairs to answer the question : "If a die shows the number 4, what number is on the opposite face".
3! What do I win?

PSSSSST! I'll actually let you into a magic secret as it does address this subject of the invisible deck and memory once and for all.

When you get the deck it will be paired in a certain way that the manufacture recommends. You can learn that if you wish, or, as the cards are not glued together, most magicians repair the cards into an easier pairing that they can remember.

No one is paying that close attention to the deck and so you can't pair up a black ace on one side with the opposite black ace on the other. How easy is that to remember? - Spectator says "Ace of Spades" you take out the deck the right side up and thumb through till you find the Ace of Clubs and separate there. The face down card will be the other black Ace of Spades. No memory required.

Of course you can pair it up in any way you want but not many stick with the standard set up their the deck comes in.

Hopefully this has been helpful and clear up all the arguing about how much memory work an invisible deck takes: It can take as much or as little as you want it to take.
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Old 02-06-2015, 10:05
jsmith99
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3! What do I win?

PSSSSST! I'll actually let you into a magic secret as it does address this subject of the invisible deck and memory once and for all.....................

No one is paying that close attention to the deck and so you can't pair up a black ace on one side with the opposite black ace on the other. How easy is that to remember? - ......................
You win box sets of dynamo, troy and cross chris. Enjoy.

BIB - I assume you meant that you can pair up same colour aces. I suppose you could pair up every card with the one of the same colour and equal value.
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Old 02-06-2015, 10:17
egghead1
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HE does a good bill switch I'll give that at least.
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Old 02-06-2015, 10:20
codeblue
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HE does a good bill switch I'll give that at least.
and then ruins it with touching the bag.
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Old 02-06-2015, 12:00
The_Bonobo
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3! What do I win?

PSSSSST! I'll actually let you into a magic secret as it does address this subject of the invisible deck and memory once and for all.

When you get the deck it will be paired in a certain way that the manufacture recommends. You can learn that if you wish, or, as the cards are not glued together, most magicians repair the cards into an easier pairing that they can remember.

No one is paying that close attention to the deck and so you can't pair up a black ace on one side with the opposite black ace on the other. How easy is that to remember? - Spectator says "Ace of Spades" you take out the deck the right side up and thumb through till you find the Ace of Clubs and separate there. The face down card will be the other black Ace of Spades. No memory required.

Of course you can pair it up in any way you want but not many stick with the standard set up their the deck comes in.

Hopefully this has been helpful and clear up all the arguing about how much memory work an invisible deck takes: It can take as much or as little as you want it to take.
I don't suppose it matters with a regular audience as they probably won't know how the
deck works but I was thinking that since it is on TV it might have been a good idea to
change it up.

Not only changing which ones are paired but even which ones are on each side. It would
make it more awkward and mean more practice. Also it might make it riskier.

But if, for instance, he spread the cards and there was the 6 of hearts beside the 3 of clubs,
then behind the 6 was the 10 of diamonds, that would have thrown the casual
magic enthusiasts off thinking maybe it's not the classic deck.
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Old 02-06-2015, 12:05
Old Endeavour
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You win box sets of dynamo, troy and cross chris. Enjoy.
Gee thanks! I thought you liked me?

BIB - I assume you meant that you can pair up same colour aces. I suppose you could pair up every card with the one of the same colour and equal value.
Yes that was a typo.

Yes that's the idea that you can simply pair up the same colour same value opposite of every card, I just used the Ace as an example. Or you can use one of the many simpler set ups known to magicians or one completely of your own invention or the original way it comes in the box.

It's just that several people have been arguing about how hard the memory system is to learn and how quickly you can get to a card, so I thought I'd clear it up by posting that 1. it can be changed from the order that it comes in and 2. most magicians do exactly that.

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Old 02-06-2015, 12:11
pjc229
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IBut if, for instance, he spread the cards and there was the 6 of hearts beside the 3 of clubs, then behind the 6 was the 10 of diamonds, that would have thrown the casual magic enthusiasts off thinking maybe it's not the classic deck.
This is such a pathetic criticism. The only people who would notice are people who know how the deck works anyway, so what does it matter? The only reason I ever thought for changing the off-the-shelf arrangement is if somebody might notice that they're only seeing all odd or all even, but they never EVER do. So why bother? It adds nothing to the effect. (Even with that said, I recoil at the suggestion in here to back spades against clubs of the same rank, as I think people would notice only seeing two suits - but again, maybe they wouldn't.)

Edit - as an aside, what's a good way to style it out if the card picked just happens to be on the bottom? I always think it looks a bit shit when it's the last card, as it looks like it's just been added. Cut the deck? But that kinda goes against the whole "I'm not going to do anything to the deck other than spread it" thing which makes the trick so great.
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Old 02-06-2015, 12:20
The_Bonobo
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This is such a pathetic criticism. The only people who would notice are people who know how the deck works anyway, so what does it matter? The only reason I ever thought for changing the off-the-shelf arrangement is if somebody might notice that they're only seeing all odd or all even, but they never EVER do. So why bother? It adds nothing to the effect. (Even with that said, I recoil at the suggestion in here to back spades against clubs of the same rank, as I think people would notice only seeing two suits - but again, maybe they wouldn't.)
I really don't understand why so many of the comments about this magic act have to be
so rude.

Anyway it was not a criticism. It was only a comment regarding the fact that a small group
of the audience will be able to recognize the trick immediately, and then who knows, kick
off on a forum or something. I also pointed out that most of the audience won't need any
such convoluted methods. It was just a thought of how he could have made the trick
slightly different.

It was not a way of putting him down. Why would I feel the need to put someone down?
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Old 02-06-2015, 12:26
Old Endeavour
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I don't suppose it matters with a regular audience as they probably won't know how the
deck works but I was thinking that since it is on TV it might have been a good idea to
change it up.

Not only changing which ones are paired but even which ones are on each side. It would
make it more awkward and mean more practice. Also it might make it riskier.

But if, for instance, he spread the cards and there was the 6 of hearts beside the 3 of clubs,
then behind the 6 was the 10 of diamonds, that would have thrown the casual
magic enthusiasts off thinking maybe it's not the classic deck.
Yes all of that is completely true.

There are also other deck systems and orders to do other tricks and when playing for a general lay audience you would be surprised how simple and obvious a set up you can get away with. There are of course many well know stacked deck systems ranging from so simple to quite complex that requires a bit of brain work to work out the chosen card. But generally things only need to be as complicated as they need to be - You don't want to mess up because your brain can't work under pressure.

A true story: I was with friends last year and we were watching a magician on TV and I instantly spotted the stacked deck system he was using and named the spectator's card before he did. My friend's were most impressed even though they know I'm in the business. They were impressed that I could do it via TV without handling the cards.

So yes, when on TV, best to use a lesser known system in any card set up.
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Old 02-06-2015, 12:32
Old Endeavour
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and then ruins it with touching the bag.
Sorry, but do you know anything about magic? Only I can name 1000s of tricks where the magician does the end bit, yet you seem totally obsessed with this bit like no magician has ever done that before.

You are inventing things to dislike him that are just not valid.

Just say you hated him and that you were not entertained at all by his act, as that is a valid opinion and doesn't require any bogus invention that he did something wrong in that bit when 1000s of tricks end that way.
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Old 02-06-2015, 12:37
codeblue
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Sorry, but do you know anything about magic?
We are all entitled to our opinion.

If you did that in one of your own tricks, i would call you out on it too.

Having deliberately set aside the box, only to then get Alesha to open it carefully and remove another box, and then get Alesha to open that, he was clearly gearing up so that he would not touch anything.

However he then grabbed the bag making the double box useless and pointless.

Do you understand?
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Old 02-06-2015, 12:39
Parneb
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How did he come second His act was not original He should have done something similar to the Helicopter trick


I agree with you. Just a big con and not a good one at that.
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Old 02-06-2015, 13:02
pjc229
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I really don't understand why so many of the comments about this magic act have to be so rude.
Sorry, wasn't meant to be rude, just a bt frustrated as I have seen this crop up a few times and I'm utterly baffled as to why it matters. It's not like you can spoil the end of the trick (as in Old Endeavour's example above) by giving something away before the reveal, you just either know the mechanism or you don't.
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Old 02-06-2015, 13:13
walterwhite
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Six quid for a lemon?
That wasn't his first trick.
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Old 02-06-2015, 13:41
Old Endeavour
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We are all entitled to our opinion.

If you did that in one of your own tricks, i would call you out on it too.

Having deliberately set aside the box, only to then get Alesha to open it carefully and remove another box, and then get Alesha to open that, he was clearly gearing up so that he would not touch anything.

However he then grabbed the bag making the double box useless and pointless.

Do you understand?
Do you understand that magic is a form on entertainment and if you turned up to one of my shows with that bad arrogant get the magician as it's you self-elected job as you don't get that it's just a piece of entertainment, I'd have you thrown out!

You'd call someone out? Who are you?

Thank you for showing what this new generation is all about and their nasty 'get the magician' attitude due entirely to their understanding of a simple magic show.

You had better yourself around to a few shows as there are numerous tricks that end that way and have been standards for years.

Just where does this new generation of spectators get the attitude from that they run the magician's show, not the magician? You sit and watch and take part if and when asked to. You are then free to decide if you enjoyed it or not. You don't get to dictate what the magician does or when. As of the nasty attitude of you saying that you would call them out and attempt to ruin their act, that says everything we need to know.
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Old 02-06-2015, 13:52
egghead1
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We are all entitled to our opinion.

If you did that in one of your own tricks, i would call you out on it too.

Having deliberately set aside the box, only to then get Alesha to open it carefully and remove another box, and then get Alesha to open that, he was clearly gearing up so that he would not touch anything.

However he then grabbed the bag making the double box useless and pointless.

Do you understand?
He didnt grab the bag he asked her to pass it to him,just like in these clips,"gearing up so he didnt touch anything" is your opinion,it was merely an impossible location trick.
You are clueless,examples here that crush that theory.

See two magicians taking lemon from the bag themselves
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5SQzmnM-cY 1mn 50.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxUhWL-xwjA 2min 05
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Old 02-06-2015, 13:53
Dalekbuster523
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Do you understand that magic is a form on entertainment and if you turned up to one of my shows with that bad arrogant get the magician as it's you self-elected job as you don't get that it's just a piece of entertainment, I'd have you thrown out!

You'd call someone out? Who are you?

Thank you for showing what this new generation is all about and their nasty 'get the magician' attitude due entirely to their understanding of a simple magic show.

You had better yourself around to a few shows as there are numerous tricks that end that way and have been standards for years.

Just where does this new generation of spectators get the attitude from that they run the magician's show, not the magician? You sit and watch and take part if and when asked to. You are then free to decide if you enjoyed it or not. You don't get to dictate what the magician does or when. As of the nasty attitude of you saying that you would call them out and attempt to ruin their act, that says everything we need to know.
Blimey, you don't exactly sound like a cheerful magician....
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Old 02-06-2015, 13:56
pjc229
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He didnt grab the bag he asked her to pass it to him,just like in these clips,"gearing up so he didnt touch anything" is your opinion,it was merely an impossible location trick.
You are clueless,examples here that crush that theory.

See two magicians taking lemon from the bag themselves
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5SQzmnM-cY 1mn 50.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxUhWL-xwjA 2min 05
TBF, all you've really done there is link us to two far, far superior handlings of a similar trick. Raven's was clunky for exactly the reason codeblue states, and that isn't evident in either of these two videos.
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Old 02-06-2015, 13:57
D_Peugeot
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We are all entitled to our opinion.

If you did that in one of your own tricks, i would call you out on it too.

Having deliberately set aside the box, only to then get Alesha to open it carefully and remove another box, and then get Alesha to open that, he was clearly gearing up so that he would not touch anything.

However he then grabbed the bag making the double box useless and pointless.

Do you understand?
Well put.
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Old 02-06-2015, 14:42
jsmith99
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Gee thanks! I thought you liked me? ..................
Of course I do. And may I say that was a brilliant analysis you did in (possibly) another thread, pointing out that presentation is everything.

............. The only people who would notice are people who know how the deck works anyway, so what does it matter? The only reason I ever thought for changing the off-the-shelf arrangement is if somebody might notice that they're only seeing all odd or all even, but they never EVER do. So why bother? It adds nothing to the effect. (Even with that said, I recoil at the suggestion in here to back spades against clubs of the same rank, as I think people would notice only seeing two suits - but again, maybe they wouldn't.)...........
I'll admit I've only known how this trick works since yesterday morning, while I've been baffled by it many times in the past. Which doesn't spoil it for me, because now I'll be looking for the one important move.

However, is there any reason why pairs shouldn't be turned over within the pack? There's no reason the pack should show all odds, all evens, or the same two suits.
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Old 02-06-2015, 14:50
pjc229
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However, is there any reason why pairs shouldn't be turned over within the pack? There's no reason the pack should show all odds, all evens, or the same two suits.
Not at all - but you need to know you've got the correct half face-up when you remove the deck from the box to present it to the audience. The more you mix it, the more difficult this will be.
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Old 02-06-2015, 14:58
MattXfactor
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I thought he was good too but .....

.... when he said that he was the most talented human in 2015 I lost all respect for him.

Dogs have to be trained and to train the winning act to do what we saw must have taken some patience and skill.

I'm not saying that Jules and Matisse should have won, as they did, but I really didn't like Jamie's comment. he belittled a fellow contestant.

[And yes, I have seen the "other" thread]
It was a joke though? I don't understand how people are honestly losing respect for the guy over this, he was just joking at the fact that he came 2nd to a dog. A tongue in cheek joke. He wasn't belittling them at all.
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Old 02-06-2015, 15:12
egghead1
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TBF, all you've really done there is link us to two far, far superior handlings of a similar trick. Raven's was clunky for exactly the reason codeblue states, and that isn't evident in either of these two videos.
Just making the point to contradict codeblue who said magicians dont handle bag or lemon.
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Old 02-06-2015, 15:30
codeblue
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Just making the point to contradict codeblue who said magicians dont handle bag or lemon.
Im saying having set his stall out that the gift box was untouched, and that it was a bag box within a box (again reenforcing that he could not possibly have access to it) i assumed that he wouldnt touch it.

This is why i think it was a bad trick.

I first assumed he had bailed out of getting the note into the bag through the boxes, as i didnt think he would touch the bag because of the above.

The fact that he then did so, on purpose as part of the plan, well, it just smacks of a poor trick.

I will stick with that opinion.
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