I think at some point eventually there probably will be a Mick and Linda two hander. People will probably complain but Den & Angie had one, Kat & Alfie, Phil & Sharon - I think DTC will want M & L amongst that lot but I don't think it will happen this year.

I can see Linda's point about Shirley but I thought she wanted an end to the feud, wouldn't this make the feud worse?

Some posters on here seem to paint Shirley out to be an emotionless monster when that is not the case. And I hardly think she would attempt to turn Ollie against Linda, she has never tried to turn Nancy on Lee on their mother, at the beginning she even kept them out of the fight and said it wasn't her place to say anything. A bit OTT, in my humble opinion.

I agree.
Surely no one in their right mind would let an alcoholic near a baby anyway. Especially a cold, spiteful, poisonous one like Shirley. Hardly a nurturing figure to have in a child's life. I don't think it's a question of using the baby as a weapon, but keeping a harmful influence away from him. If I were Linda I'd keep Shirley well away long term.

That alone is unforgivable, starting trouble just after she gave birth, she couldn't even enjoy her baby precious moment to be ruined by Shirley and Dean invading.

Shirley is unpredictable, she a alcoholic with sociopath tendencies, she doesn't care for Linda and never has, Linda is a obstacle to her, she only interested in that child because it her way to Mick, she knows Mick won't leave Linda but she will be willing to emotionally manipulate him to get her way, Mick might be one thing, as Linda knows how much it is hurting him she willing to break bread but it's a different matter when it's her child, she can see how harmful Shirley is, the other two are grown up so can make up their own mind.

Well it was me that said it and i think she would given the comments she has made in the past about Linda being a liar that is just trying to cause trouble between her and Mick.

She diid put Nancy and Lee in the middle by going back to the Vic and letting Dean in too when Mick and Linda were away and Shirley knew Nancy had been told she was in charge and not to let Shirley anywhere near.

No she is not emotionless, she is tto emotional which is why she is lilely to say something negative about Linda and the rape allegations when in a temper. She loses her temper, she says and does things like cutting up the license sign - would you want your child around that?

I do also, genuinely believe that she wouldn't see a problem with letting Dean have contact with Ollie if she had him for a visit and surely linda is allowed not to want her Rapist near her baby?

Linda was trying to be understanding and forge a reconciliation for Mick's sake but i think Shirley barging into the Hospital demanding DNA tests probably finally destroyed any positive feelings towards Shirley. I'm sure they would for me. DNA testing was Mick and linda's decision, nobody else's.

In normal circumstances i agree that children should never be used as pawns and if it was a simple case of the mother and paternal grandmother not getting on it would be no reason to deny contact. My Mum and Dad's Mum didn't much like each other (actually my Dad didn't much like his Mum either) but there was never any question of her not seeing me or my brother. But this isn't a simple situation - when something as serious as an affair, let alone rape has happened in a family then the 3rd party is bound to become personae not grata and if the grandparent has chosen one son over another, believing their son rather than their daughter in law, then it might be understandable but they have to live with the consequences of that choice.

Linda is the baby's mother, she has a right to decide who that baby spends time with.

Yes, i agree.

It isn't a question of using a child as a weapon but keeping them safe from harmful influences and I can see why Linda could see Shirley as a harmful influence.

I'm not saying this is correct, mothers can't be blames for their sons becoming rapists, but Dean is without a doubt screwed up and a lot of that does come back to Having Shirley as a mother. Would Linda want the same influence near her boy whilst he is growing up?

I'm sorry you can say i'm hprrible but even though I might understand why the mother of a man that raped me couldn't believe him capable of it, i wouldn't want them being any kind of influence on my child as they grew up. I just wouldn't.

Yes, I completely agree with all of this.

The very thing that makes a lot of people sympathise with Shirley - that she appears to honestly believe that Dean is innocent and Linda is a liar that just wants to cause trouble make ir impossible to be sure that she wouldn't speak out against Linda to Oliver or have him spend time with Dean as he grew up.

I think Linda should give Shirley a chance and only stop access if she puts a foot out of line.

It's called being the bigger person. At least that way Ollie can't grow up and say that Linda stopped him having a relationship with his grandmother out of spite.

Anyway sooner or later Shirley is going to reconcile with her family and this won't even be an issue.

Define putting a foot out of line?

Not being difficult but I'$ wondering what that would consist of. Does it mean shirley verbally attacking Linda again or does it have to be something specifically to do with Ollie like allowing Dean access as his Uncle.

In this instance it isn't, as long as Dean is there it will be a issue, Linda been a big enough person already and given her chance after chance, considering everything she been through and been put through by them, she a bloody saint.

Until six months ago Shirley wasn't even grandmother so it would make little difference if she had contact, Shirley hasn't shown she deserves it.

It will always be a issue even if a force truce came about there will always be hassle with her and Linda.

Shirley saying anything bad about Linda, and allowing Dean near the baby. If Linda stipulated that either of those things mustn't occur, I wouldn't find it unreasonable. They fall under common sense imo. She could insist that Shirley only sees Ollie for a limited period of time in neutral territory. I just feel cutting off access completely is harsh. We all know Shirley's faults but she deserves a chance, this is a new relationship one that isn't tainted by the past.

Even with her own kids she didn't walk out because she didn't love or care about them. Mick and Tina both credit her as a positive influence in their lives and it's never been stated that she was a bad mum to Jimbo, Carly and Dean while she was on the scene.

There are ways to get round the Dean thing. Linda could stipulate that visits take place at the Vic or on neutral territory and even set a time limit initially. I would not find that unreasonable and I would understand her concerns re: Dean. Would Dean even be interested in Ollie since he isn't his son?

She's tried being the bigger person for months - how long is she supposed to be attacked by Shirley in order to 'keep the peace'?

We don't know that she does stop access for good - we know she doesn't let her see him at this opportunity. We have no idea how Shirley tries to see him, the tone she takes, whether Linda is on her own or anything. Regardless, it's hard to fault Linda's behaviour when it comes to Shirley. She's tried repeatedly.

What, you mean except for Kevin saying (and her not disputing) that she went out drinking and shagging around every night after Jimbo was born?

Sadly, due to the circumstances surrounding the pregnancy (the rape, possibility of Dean being the father, Dean and Shirley constantly harassing Linda throughout the pregnancy and straight after birth) it already is tainted by the past and Shirley's continued belief that Dean is a truth telling victim whilst Linda a liar taints the present and currently the future.

How exactly would Linda know whether Shirley had spoken out of turn about her around Oliver or allowed Dean to see him unless she supervised all visits?

I also agree that Linda has been the bigger person time after time already, both before and after the rape. Even allowing Shirley to move in and get a third share of the Vic was being the bigger person. So has inviting her for meals and encouraging Mick to talk to her in the past few months.

Seriously, how many more times must she turn the other cheek?

I don't think Dean would be particularly interested (unless he sees it as a way of getting at Mick and Linda which I wouldn't put past him) but I think Shirley would encourage him, come out with "he's your nephew, he's family, he should know you, not what Linda says about you, i want my grandson and his nephew at the same table with me" yada, yada, yada.

I know what Kevin said but there have also been references to her doing stuff with the kids etc so it can't have been all bad, hence Carly and Dean's main grievance being that she walked out on them.

Linda could insist on supervised access to start with to build up a level of trust. Shirley doesn't slate Linda 24/7 and didn't turn Nancy and Lee against her. She refused to tell Nancy and Lee what their mum was accusing Dean of - if her intention was to turn them against their mum, she would've given them chapter and verse and impressed upon them Dean's innocence. I don't believe she is heartless and would try to damage Ollie and Linda's relationship.

I just view Shirley and Ollie's relationship as being individual to them and unrelated to the rape stuff. Yes, it's around the relationship but it doesn't have to affect it to the extent no access can be given if all parties agree that it shouldn't.

Well that's supposition, just like the stuff about Mick going behind Linda's back, and Shirley helping Linda give birth as a form of redemption.

A caring grandmother should be allowed to see her grandchild but I, for one, am getting sick of Shirley treating her family like shite and then acting like they, and the rest of the world, all owe her a favour.

Quite frankly Linda has been the bigger person all along. She has bent over backwards in situations where I'd be telling her to p!ss right off and never darken my door again, I think many women would have done so. Look at it from Linda's POV, you've been raped, you're vulnerable and emotionally fragile and yet you have your mother-in-law calling you a liar and saying your rape was infidelity NOT rape - and not only saying it in private but in public too wanting to shame you. How many women would seriously want that woman anywhere near them never mind their child? How many women would be giving "it's Shirley or me" ultimatums yet Linda has done nothing but be the bigger person, biting down on her own feelings to try and keep the peace, why she should still bend even more?

Perhaps SHIRLEY should be the one to start doing some bending. Perhaps she should look into herself and start making an effort starting with a big, fat apology. Linda doesn't have to accept it but it's a start. Why does it always have to be other people who need to understand Shirley? Some introspection off Shirley in the case of Linda would be nice.

Oh annd when Ollie grows up and finds out the hell his granny put his mother through after the hell of the her rape? She's his mother, who do you think he's going to support?

Yes, it is supposition, it is something I think Shirley would be capable of giving how she has continued to bring Dean into the Vic against Mick and Linda's wishes and comments she made about wanting to be with both her sons as she buried Stan.

I'm afraid I refuse to believe this revisionist history of Shirley where she didn't leave her children until they were much older and took them to the beach and stuff. I believe what was said by Kevin and Pat when she returned in 2007, especially as Dean and Carly didn't recognise or remember her, indicating she left when they were very young and that she didn't dispute it.

I'm afraid i just don't see how the difficulties can be ignored to allow the grandmother an 'individual' relationship with the child when it is something as serious as the Grandmother believing that the Mother is lying about having been raped by her other son.

Well said, agree with every word.

It would be great as long as Shirley wasn't in it.


Shirley made up her mind without even examining the evidence


Well said. Good posting.

I still think if enough effort is made a compromise could be reached, like how couples who go through acrimonious break-ups come to an arrangement over their children. It's called putting your personal feelings aside.

I know a grandparent is different to a parent but Shirley has shown an interest in the baby. Linda may have genuine concerns but should only withhold access if Shirley proves her right in those concerns. If Linda won't even try it looks like the baby is being used to score points because of the way Shirley has behaved. I see no reason to link that behaviour (sniping over Dean) to Shirley behaving inappropriately around the baby. I mean what sort of monster do people think she is?! Nothing we have seen so far suggests that she has an ulterior motive in wanting to see the baby.

What's gone on between Linda and Shirley is personal to them. If Shirley did choose to involve the baby in any way I would not approve and fully advocate Linda revoking access, but I don't agree with not giving it in the first place.


As far as I'm aware, they haven't changed it so that that Carly and Dean do remember her. Whenever Shirley has referenced a memory from the past, Dean hasn't said that he remembers it too.

She shouldn't have too, Linda doesn't consider her the child grandparent, Mick spent he's whole life thinking it was he sister up till six months ago, just because it come out doesn't mean she deserves that title, why should Linda have to deal with more undue stress of having Shirley a unstable/unpredictable lush hanging about her child, Shirley has show plenty of times why she is not fit to be around them, she doesn't have a good relationship with her why push something that is not there.

She never shown any real interest in her other grand children, it all false.

Some one said to me Shirley was the victim in all this because her son was the rapist, again glossing over Linda actually being the one raped.