Goodbye Whatsapp ?

Mark C · 10-07-2015, 17:26

http://tribune.com.pk/story/918323/u...-within-weeks/

Gigabit · 10-07-2015, 18:01

I believe what the law actually does is to prevent encrypted data from being unreadable by the authorities.

It nowhere (that I can see) states that Whatsapp is being banned.

jchamier · 10-07-2015, 18:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gigabit

It nowhere (that I can see) states that Whatsapp is being banned.

WhatsApp pride themselves on being secure (ie, encrypted) and that they have no adverts. They may be owned by Facebook, Inc, which could of course affect their decision.

If the UK is becoming China in respect to individuals data, and demanding interception capability, then WhatsApp will have to evaluate if they open their networks to the UK Government, or withdraw the service from the UK. The latter they could decide to do if they believe their revenue in other countries is based on the security model.

Whatever happens it will affect Apple and Google as well.

Mr Cameron and co don't understand it, they need to read up:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/07...ryption_plans/

https://www.schneier.com/blog/archiv...sks_of_ma.html

Old Endeavour · 10-07-2015, 18:22

What's to stop you using the App on a server outside the UK via a proxy?

jchamier · 10-07-2015, 18:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old Endeavour

What's to stop you using the App on a server outside the UK via a proxy?

Whats going to happen to VPNs that multinational companies run?

Cameron is going after "encryption" but if he thinks he can get rid of VPNs and get rid of HTTPS web pages, he might as well shut down the entire economy.

This is not thought through.

mupet0000 · 10-07-2015, 18:30

This wont work. They can't enforce a block on encryption, if anything, this will ensure that encryption becomes more prevalent than ever. Many people would like to shoot Cameron in the foot, but it appears that he's done that himself.

psionic · 10-07-2015, 18:41

Politicians don't understand the internet and never have done. They only way this could be achieved in practice is to shut Facebook down or buy them out. Even then it won't make a difference ultimately as people will always find ways around it or use alternatives.

nafanny29 · 10-07-2015, 19:23

Whatsapp is going nowhere, its used by literally 95% of all my phone contacts.

Unless the government really have a death wish.

Gigabit · 10-07-2015, 20:18

I understand the argument that the Government are concerned about terrorists using WhatsApp for terror, however are there any actual terror cases that could have been prevented had they had access to WhatsApp?

Swipe · 10-07-2015, 20:20

It will get bocked again

engineermoore · 10-07-2015, 20:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gigabit

I understand the argument that the Government are concerned about terrorists using WhatsApp for terror, however are there any actual terror cases that could have been prevented had they had access to WhatsApp?

and obviously once this law is in place the terrorists wont break it! terrorists don't like breaking laws....

psionic · 10-07-2015, 22:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by engineermoore

and obviously once this law is in place the terrorists wont break it! terrorists don't like breaking laws....

Yep - they're a law abiding bunch. They'll stick writing letters to each other instead

John_Patrick · 10-07-2015, 22:19

Remember folks, MI6, CIA, Sweeny, CI5, CIA, FBI et all aint interested in intercepting smutty pics and dirty messages between consenting adults but they may want to read messages between people on the watch lists.

Which is better, the story in a few months time saying that these services have withdrawn from the UK or a court case/coroners inquiry that states that a serious attack was planned by using encrypted services that we could have prevented.

I know which I would prefer.

IslandNiles · 10-07-2015, 22:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by John_Patrick

Remember folks, MI6, CIA, Sweeny, CI5, CIA, FBI et all aint interested in intercepting smutty pics and dirty messages between consenting adults but they may want to read messages between people on the watch lists.

Which is better, the story in a few months time saying that these services have withdrawn from the UK or a court case/coroners inquiry that states that a serious attack was planned by using encrypted services that we could have prevented.

I know which I would prefer.

Banning services like Facebook Messenger, iMessage, WhatsApp and Snapchat from the UK is ridiculous and just isn't going to happen. And as others have said, what about communication via encrypted websites? What about cloud storage systems that have encryption? It's not feasible.

The other option, and I believe the one preferred by the government, is for the providers to build in backdoors so that the communications can be intercepted. This is possibly even more ridiculous than banning the services. A deliberate backdoor would inevitably be exploited by hackers and fraudsters.

As usual, we have politicians claiming that they want to do all sorts of things when they don't have any actual understanding of how these things work.

mupet0000 · 10-07-2015, 23:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by John_Patrick

Remember folks, MI6, CIA, Sweeny, CI5, CIA, FBI et all aint interested in intercepting smutty pics and dirty messages between consenting adults but they may want to read messages between people on the watch lists.

Which is better, the story in a few months time saying that these services have withdrawn from the UK or a court case/coroners inquiry that states that a serious attack was planned by using encrypted services that we could have prevented.

I know which I would prefer.

Yeah because banning encryption is going to help fight terrorism. You'd just do one of the following:
A. Use a VPN
B. Organise terrorism abroad
C. Use internet from satellites
D. Talk in person
E. Talk in code in an unencrypted chat
Etc...

Encryption goes as far as WPA and https. That would mean that your home network must be open, otherwise it would be using WPA or WEP encryption. Any website like Google/Youtube/Facebook/Twitter, they all use encryption, so that no one can intercept your traffic and snoop on you or steal your credentials and pose as you.

Ever heard of online banking? You do realise that it's encrypted right?

Encryption is extremely important in many many ways, and if you are willing to give it up because "I have nothing to hide", you are an idiot or you don't understand what encryption truly is.

In Cameron's case, I think both.

Gigabit · 11-07-2015, 01:12

If you want to make a terrorist plot, you're going to find a way to do it.

We're never going to be able to predict future plots perfectly but we've gone basically 10 years without a serious incident so we must be doing something right already.

Mark C · 11-07-2015, 07:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by mupet0000

Encryption is extremely important in many many ways, and if you are willing to give it up because "I have nothing to hide", you are an idiot or you don't understand what encryption truly is.

In Cameron's case, I think both.

Yes !!! Problem, politicians are broadly a bunch of poorly educated, knee jerk reaction dimbos. I recall Alastair Campbell saying that he switches off any empty mains socket
he sees, because it will be 'leaking energy'. Eh ? !

However, mainstream journalists are just as stupid, so nothing ever gets properly challenged.

The mobile companies won't be any help of course, they'd love to see their their SMS revenue restored to pre 2010 levels. Fortunately Facebook, Google, et al will put up a case.

(Oooh, I can hear a helicopter overhead......)

davor · 11-07-2015, 07:41

UK is becoming a dictatorship, all under the disguise of the terrorism and radicalisation prevention. Banning a commercial app and encrypted messagining is an attack on democracy. On the other hand, real potential terrorist will keep on using something even if that's illegal. They can have home made apps that allow 128bit encryption with the advanced key pairing etc.

Only ordinary people will suffer from this legislation and it won't prevent malicious messaging being encrypted. I was happy when Torries won a majority, now, I'm not so sure. they are becoming too complacent, which is bad for the country.

Swipe · 11-07-2015, 08:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by davor

I was happy when Torries won a majority, now, I'm not so sure. they are becoming too complacent, which is bad for the country.

It's not just Tory policy. Believe me, Labour would have been trying to push this crap through too had they been elected this time around..

engineermoore · 11-07-2015, 09:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swipe

It's not just Tory policy. Believe me, Labour would have been trying to push this crap through too had they been elected this time around..

Personally I was hoping for another Con/Lib coalition. The Liberals seemed to do a decent job at stopping stuff like this.

You are right though, the two main parties are very similar when it comes to things like this.

nafanny29 · 11-07-2015, 11:31

Al this, whats the point when you can buy a SIM card in cash without ID lol

noise747 · 11-07-2015, 11:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by nafanny29

Al this, whats the point when you can buy a SIM card in cash without ID lol

There was talk about pre-pay users having to register, not sure if it will happen.,

I don't use Whats app, i keep getting people asking me to use it, but at the end of the day we all got SMS. I already got Facebook messenger on the phone, if I installed every messenger app people ask me to install, I would have no psace on my phone.

gillyallan · 11-07-2015, 11:40

If the phone companies included mms then for the most I wouldn't need whatsapp or viber but at 30p a pic msg it's too expensive

SkipTracer · 11-07-2015, 11:55

BREAKING NEWS: Vodafone, o2, EE and 3, closing within weeks because they use encryption on their mobile phone calls.

OK, I'll get my hat and coat.

Gigabit · 11-07-2015, 11:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swipe

It's not just Tory policy. Believe me, Labour would have been trying to push this crap through too had they been elected this time around..

They wanted ID cards...

10-07-2015, 17:26	#1
Mark C Forum Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Hampshire Posts: 8,102	Goodbye Whatsapp ? http://tribune.com.pk/story/918323/u...-within-weeks/

10-07-2015, 18:01	#2
Gigabit Forum Member Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 2,887	I believe what the law actually does is to prevent encrypted data from being unreadable by the authorities. It nowhere (that I can see) states that Whatsapp is being banned.

10-07-2015, 18:15	#3
jchamier Forum Member Join Date: Mar 2000 Location: This forum Posts: 3,392	Quote: Originally Posted by Gigabit It nowhere (that I can see) states that Whatsapp is being banned. WhatsApp pride themselves on being secure (ie, encrypted) and that they have no adverts. They may be owned by Facebook, Inc, which could of course affect their decision. If the UK is becoming China in respect to individuals data, and demanding interception capability, then WhatsApp will have to evaluate if they open their networks to the UK Government, or withdraw the service from the UK. The latter they could decide to do if they believe their revenue in other countries is based on the security model. Whatever happens it will affect Apple and Google as well. Mr Cameron and co don't understand it, they need to read up: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/07...ryption_plans/ https://www.schneier.com/blog/archiv...sks_of_ma.html

10-07-2015, 18:22	#4
Old Endeavour Inactive Member Join Date: Jun 2014 Posts: 9,746	What's to stop you using the App on a server outside the UK via a proxy?

10-07-2015, 18:27	#5
jchamier Forum Member Join Date: Mar 2000 Location: This forum Posts: 3,392	Quote: Originally Posted by Old Endeavour What's to stop you using the App on a server outside the UK via a proxy? Whats going to happen to VPNs that multinational companies run? Cameron is going after "encryption" but if he thinks he can get rid of VPNs and get rid of HTTPS web pages, he might as well shut down the entire economy. This is not thought through.

10-07-2015, 18:30	#6
mupet0000 Forum Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 620	This wont work. They can't enforce a block on encryption, if anything, this will ensure that encryption becomes more prevalent than ever. Many people would like to shoot Cameron in the foot, but it appears that he's done that himself.

10-07-2015, 18:41	#7
psionic Forum Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Crystal Palace TX Posts: 19,702	Politicians don't understand the internet and never have done. They only way this could be achieved in practice is to shut Facebook down or buy them out. Even then it won't make a difference ultimately as people will always find ways around it or use alternatives.

10-07-2015, 19:23	#8
nafanny29 Forum Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kilburn, NW London Posts: 1,240	Whatsapp is going nowhere, its used by literally 95% of all my phone contacts. Unless the government really have a death wish.

10-07-2015, 20:18	#9
Gigabit Forum Member Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 2,887	I understand the argument that the Government are concerned about terrorists using WhatsApp for terror, however are there any actual terror cases that could have been prevented had they had access to WhatsApp?

10-07-2015, 20:20	#10
Swipe Forum Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Posts: 6,183	It will get bocked again

10-07-2015, 20:37	#11
engineermoore Forum Member Join Date: May 2015 Posts: 84	Quote: Originally Posted by Gigabit I understand the argument that the Government are concerned about terrorists using WhatsApp for terror, however are there any actual terror cases that could have been prevented had they had access to WhatsApp? and obviously once this law is in place the terrorists wont break it! terrorists don't like breaking laws....

10-07-2015, 22:08	#12
psionic Forum Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Crystal Palace TX Posts: 19,702	Quote: Originally Posted by engineermoore and obviously once this law is in place the terrorists wont break it! terrorists don't like breaking laws.... Yep - they're a law abiding bunch. They'll stick writing letters to each other instead

10-07-2015, 22:19	#13
John_Patrick Forum Member Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: Newcastle Posts: 904	Remember folks, MI6, CIA, Sweeny, CI5, CIA, FBI et all aint interested in intercepting smutty pics and dirty messages between consenting adults but they may want to read messages between people on the watch lists. Which is better, the story in a few months time saying that these services have withdrawn from the UK or a court case/coroners inquiry that states that a serious attack was planned by using encrypted services that we could have prevented. I know which I would prefer.

10-07-2015, 22:46	#14
IslandNiles Forum Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 13,091	Quote: Originally Posted by John_Patrick Remember folks, MI6, CIA, Sweeny, CI5, CIA, FBI et all aint interested in intercepting smutty pics and dirty messages between consenting adults but they may want to read messages between people on the watch lists. Which is better, the story in a few months time saying that these services have withdrawn from the UK or a court case/coroners inquiry that states that a serious attack was planned by using encrypted services that we could have prevented. I know which I would prefer. Banning services like Facebook Messenger, iMessage, WhatsApp and Snapchat from the UK is ridiculous and just isn't going to happen. And as others have said, what about communication via encrypted websites? What about cloud storage systems that have encryption? It's not feasible. The other option, and I believe the one preferred by the government, is for the providers to build in backdoors so that the communications can be intercepted. This is possibly even more ridiculous than banning the services. A deliberate backdoor would inevitably be exploited by hackers and fraudsters. As usual, we have politicians claiming that they want to do all sorts of things when they don't have any actual understanding of how these things work.

10-07-2015, 23:03	#15
mupet0000 Forum Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 620	Quote: Originally Posted by John_Patrick Remember folks, MI6, CIA, Sweeny, CI5, CIA, FBI et all aint interested in intercepting smutty pics and dirty messages between consenting adults but they may want to read messages between people on the watch lists. Which is better, the story in a few months time saying that these services have withdrawn from the UK or a court case/coroners inquiry that states that a serious attack was planned by using encrypted services that we could have prevented. I know which I would prefer. Yeah because banning encryption is going to help fight terrorism. You'd just do one of the following: A. Use a VPN B. Organise terrorism abroad C. Use internet from satellites D. Talk in person E. Talk in code in an unencrypted chat Etc... Encryption goes as far as WPA and https. That would mean that your home network must be open, otherwise it would be using WPA or WEP encryption. Any website like Google/Youtube/Facebook/Twitter, they all use encryption, so that no one can intercept your traffic and snoop on you or steal your credentials and pose as you. Ever heard of online banking? You do realise that it's encrypted right? Encryption is extremely important in many many ways, and if you are willing to give it up because "I have nothing to hide", you are an idiot or you don't understand what encryption truly is. In Cameron's case, I think both.

11-07-2015, 01:12	#16
Gigabit Forum Member Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 2,887	If you want to make a terrorist plot, you're going to find a way to do it. We're never going to be able to predict future plots perfectly but we've gone basically 10 years without a serious incident so we must be doing something right already.

11-07-2015, 07:33	#17
Mark C Forum Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Hampshire Posts: 8,102	Quote: Originally Posted by mupet0000 Encryption is extremely important in many many ways, and if you are willing to give it up because "I have nothing to hide", you are an idiot or you don't understand what encryption truly is. In Cameron's case, I think both. Yes !!! Problem, politicians are broadly a bunch of poorly educated, knee jerk reaction dimbos. I recall Alastair Campbell saying that he switches off any empty mains socket he sees, because it will be 'leaking energy'. Eh ? ! However, mainstream journalists are just as stupid, so nothing ever gets properly challenged. The mobile companies won't be any help of course, they'd love to see their their SMS revenue restored to pre 2010 levels. Fortunately Facebook, Google, et al will put up a case. (Oooh, I can hear a helicopter overhead......)

11-07-2015, 07:41	#18
davor Forum Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Wiltshire Posts: 5,195	UK is becoming a dictatorship, all under the disguise of the terrorism and radicalisation prevention. Banning a commercial app and encrypted messagining is an attack on democracy. On the other hand, real potential terrorist will keep on using something even if that's illegal. They can have home made apps that allow 128bit encryption with the advanced key pairing etc. Only ordinary people will suffer from this legislation and it won't prevent malicious messaging being encrypted. I was happy when Torries won a majority, now, I'm not so sure. they are becoming too complacent, which is bad for the country.

11-07-2015, 08:30	#19
Swipe Forum Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Posts: 6,183	Quote: Originally Posted by davor I was happy when Torries won a majority, now, I'm not so sure. they are becoming too complacent, which is bad for the country. It's not just Tory policy. Believe me, Labour would have been trying to push this crap through too had they been elected this time around..

11-07-2015, 09:04	#20
engineermoore Forum Member Join Date: May 2015 Posts: 84	Quote: Originally Posted by Swipe It's not just Tory policy. Believe me, Labour would have been trying to push this crap through too had they been elected this time around.. Personally I was hoping for another Con/Lib coalition. The Liberals seemed to do a decent job at stopping stuff like this. You are right though, the two main parties are very similar when it comes to things like this.

11-07-2015, 11:31	#21
nafanny29 Forum Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kilburn, NW London Posts: 1,240	Al this, whats the point when you can buy a SIM card in cash without ID lol

DS Forums

Goodbye Whatsapp ?

11-07-2015, 11:37	#22
noise747 Forum Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Herefordshire Posts: 22,810	Quote: Originally Posted by nafanny29 Al this, whats the point when you can buy a SIM card in cash without ID lol There was talk about pre-pay users having to register, not sure if it will happen., I don't use Whats app, i keep getting people asking me to use it, but at the end of the day we all got SMS. I already got Facebook messenger on the phone, if I installed every messenger app people ask me to install, I would have no psace on my phone.

11-07-2015, 11:40	#23
gillyallan Forum Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 29,115	If the phone companies included mms then for the most I wouldn't need whatsapp or viber but at 30p a pic msg it's too expensive

11-07-2015, 11:55	#24
SkipTracer Forum Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: The City and County of Bristol Posts: 2,623	BREAKING NEWS: Vodafone, o2, EE and 3, closing within weeks because they use encryption on their mobile phone calls. OK, I'll get my hat and coat.

11-07-2015, 11:58	#25
Gigabit Forum Member Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 2,887	Quote: Originally Posted by Swipe It's not just Tory policy. Believe me, Labour would have been trying to push this crap through too had they been elected this time around.. They wanted ID cards...