Originally Posted by anne_666:
“It's not that far down the road.”
“It's not that far down the road.”
How far is 'not far?'
University police officer charged with murder for shooting of Samuel DuBose
12 of 13
Originally Posted by mrtdg82:
“How far is 'not far?'”
“How far is 'not far?'”
I have no idea but that belt cam elongates as you can see by the man's car. How do you think he could be tangled up and be dragged, although his defence is he was being dragged and then shot him, which he clearly wasn't.
Originally Posted by anne_666:
“I have no idea but that belt cam elongates as you can see by the man's car.”
“I have no idea but that belt cam elongates as you can see by the man's car.”
What's that got to do with anything?
Originally Posted by anne_666:
“I have no idea but that belt cam elongates as you can see by the man's car. How do you think he could be tangled up and be dragged, although his defence is he was being dragged and then shot him, which he clearly wasn't.”
“I have no idea but that belt cam elongates as you can see by the man's car. How do you think he could be tangled up and be dragged, although his defence is he was being dragged and then shot him, which he clearly wasn't.”
If he wasn't dragged how did he end up where he landed?
Originally Posted by mrtdg82:
“If he wasn't dragged how did he end up where he landed?”
“If he wasn't dragged how did he end up where he landed?”
I've already said. Immediately after he shot him he grabbed the back edge of the open window with his left hand, as if to try and stop the car, which would surely be anyone's instinct in that situation. It gathered speed and he let go losing his balance, staggering backwards onto the ground, which you can see in slow motion.
The sheer insanity of shooting someone in the head in a moving vehicle is staggering and he falsely claimed it was moving off at speed endangering him!
How could he be tangled up in the vehicle? Both his hands were free and outside of the car after he'd shot him. The guy had his seatbelt on so he couldn't claim to have been tangled up with that. He moved away from the car in a split second before he put his arm back into the car to move his arm away from his head to shoot him in the head, so he wasn't tangled up in any other way.
Also, like I said, at the precise moment the car moves, Tensing's right hand is resting on top of the vehicle and there is no evidence to show that his left hand or head, is in it. Why would they be?
It's just not plausible that he was dragged.
It's just not plausible that he was dragged.
Originally Posted by mrtdg82:
“What's that got to do with anything?”
“What's that got to do with anything?”
It elongates distance and of course size as you can see by the man's car.
Originally Posted by blueblade:
“Also, like I said, at the precise moment the car moves, Tensing's right hand is resting on top of the vehicle and there is no evidence to show that his left hand or head, is in it. Why would they be?
It's just not plausible that he was dragged.”
“Also, like I said, at the precise moment the car moves, Tensing's right hand is resting on top of the vehicle and there is no evidence to show that his left hand or head, is in it. Why would they be?
It's just not plausible that he was dragged.”
Yes that too.
Originally Posted by anne_666:
“I've already said. Immediately after he shot him he grabbed the back edge of the open window with his left hand, as if to try and stop the car, which would surely be anyone's instinct in that situation. It gathered speed and he let go losing his balance, staggering backwards onto the ground, which you can see in slow motion.
The sheer insanity of shooting someone in the head in a moving vehicle is staggering and he falsely claimed it was moving off at speed endangering him!
How could he be tangled up in the vehicle? Both his hands were free and outside of the car after he'd shot him. The guy had his seatbelt on so he couldn't claim to have been tangled up with that. He moved away from the car in a split second before he put his arm back into the car to move his arm away from his head to shoot him in the head, so he wasn't tangled up in any other way.”
“I've already said. Immediately after he shot him he grabbed the back edge of the open window with his left hand, as if to try and stop the car, which would surely be anyone's instinct in that situation. It gathered speed and he let go losing his balance, staggering backwards onto the ground, which you can see in slow motion.
The sheer insanity of shooting someone in the head in a moving vehicle is staggering and he falsely claimed it was moving off at speed endangering him!
How could he be tangled up in the vehicle? Both his hands were free and outside of the car after he'd shot him. The guy had his seatbelt on so he couldn't claim to have been tangled up with that. He moved away from the car in a split second before he put his arm back into the car to move his arm away from his head to shoot him in the head, so he wasn't tangled up in any other way.”
Isn't his left hand permenantly in the vehicle? Until after the shot was fired of course.
Originally Posted by mrtdg82:
“Isn't his left hand permenantly in the vehicle? Until after the shot was fired of course.”
“Isn't his left hand permenantly in the vehicle? Until after the shot was fired of course.”
No he steps back for a spilt second then he puts his arm back into the car to pull the guys arm down from his head. The shot was fired in 3 seconds from the man starting the car, it had hardly moved, if at all, as you can see from the car behind. He's claiming he was tangled up in the car and dragged at some speed before he shot him.
Originally Posted by anne_666:
“No he steps back for a spilt second then he puts his arm back into the car to pull the guys arm down from his head. The shot was fired in 3 seconds from the man starting the car, it had hardly moved, if at all, as you can see from the car behind. He's claiming he was tangled up in the car and dragged at some speed before he shot him.”
“No he steps back for a spilt second then he puts his arm back into the car to pull the guys arm down from his head. The shot was fired in 3 seconds from the man starting the car, it had hardly moved, if at all, as you can see from the car behind. He's claiming he was tangled up in the car and dragged at some speed before he shot him.”
I've watched it in slow motion several times and I don't see his left arm move from inside the car. I also still can't see how he ended up in the position he did following falling. He seems to have travelled 2 car lengths which is what, 15 feet?
I'm not suggesting he was dragged at speed but for him to end up where he did he must have been moved along somehow.
Originally Posted by mrtdg82:
“I've watched it in slow motion several times and I don't see his left arm move from inside the car. I also still can't see how he ended up in the position he did following falling. He seems to have travelled 2 car lengths which is what, 15 feet?
I'm not suggesting he was dragged at speed but for him to end up where he did he must have been moved along somehow.”
“I've watched it in slow motion several times and I don't see his left arm move from inside the car. I also still can't see how he ended up in the position he did following falling. He seems to have travelled 2 car lengths which is what, 15 feet?
I'm not suggesting he was dragged at speed but for him to end up where he did he must have been moved along somehow.”
Here; http://oi60.tinypic.com/23k259e.jpg
Originally Posted by mrtdg82:
“Are we discussing Tensing here? Because isn't that as he goes to Reach into the car?”
“Are we discussing Tensing here? Because isn't that as he goes to Reach into the car?”
Yes.......i thought that's who you meant when you said you didn't see his left arm move inside the car? Prior to that frame his right hand can be seen on the car roof so at that point he hadn't drawn his gun either. Freezing the frames isn't that easy but the point at which DuBose is shot, you see his body lurch back. We are talking in milliseconds here unfortunately.
Originally Posted by Bulletguy1:
“Yes.......i thought that's who you meant when you said you didn't see his left arm move inside the car? Prior to that frame his right hand can be seen on the car roof so at that point he hadn't drawn his gun either. Freezing the frames isn't that easy but the point at which DuBose is shot, you see his body lurch back. We are talking in milliseconds here unfortunately.”
“Yes.......i thought that's who you meant when you said you didn't see his left arm move inside the car? Prior to that frame his right hand can be seen on the car roof so at that point he hadn't drawn his gun either. Freezing the frames isn't that easy but the point at which DuBose is shot, you see his body lurch back. We are talking in milliseconds here unfortunately.”
No sorry I saw his left arm Move in the car, it also stays there although I'd question if it was trapped as such.
The question is of course whether he drew his gun to prevent him going or because his arm was in the car so he was protecting himself.
I'm still unsure how he ended up where he was when he was on the floor.
Originally Posted by mrtdg82:
“No sorry I saw his left arm Move in the car, it also stays there although I'd question if it was trapped as such.
The question is of course whether he drew his gun to prevent him going or because his arm was in the car so he was protecting himself.
I'm still unsure how he ended up where he was when he was on the floor.”
“No sorry I saw his left arm Move in the car, it also stays there although I'd question if it was trapped as such.
The question is of course whether he drew his gun to prevent him going or because his arm was in the car so he was protecting himself.
I'm still unsure how he ended up where he was when he was on the floor.”
It doesn't stay there. The man is fully visible and the cops arm is not in the car at all after he goes for the ignition, he's moved slightly back. Then it's visible that he put his arm back into the car and up to the man's arms to move them from his head. After he shoots him his left hand goes to the back edge of the open window. Clear as day. Select .25 speed and freeze frame it. I'm sure he was trying to stop the car moving and he fell back as it gathered speed.
I read over the thread and it seems justice is being served. All the officers I read say they wouldn't have done what he did. It will be up to a jury to determine whether it was murder one or voluntary manslaughter. It could or couldn't be racist. It shows that the cams are a good thing as there is at least evidence to argue over.
Another videoed exchange that Tensing had with someone last year - link
Just watched the video on YouTube. Tensing wasn't particularly rude or aggressive (but then he wasn't with Sam DuBose either, up until the moment he shot him in the head). 
But he was spectacularly ignorant about whatever law(s) he was supposedly enforcing and I notice he did exactly the same as the Texas officer did with Sandra Bland - ordering the 'suspects' to step out of the car without telling them why. It may be the letter of the law but it is a practice wide open to abuse and it just doesn't sit right with me (which, granted, may be down to my European / anti-authoritarian sensibilities).*
*Other opinions are available, albeit at a much higher cost.
In the U.S. I think it all boils down to poor training and a culture of unaccountability which doesn't do the police themselves any favours. If significant numbers of citizens are wary of dealing with officers - I.e. don't trust them, don't believe them and won't call / interact them with if they can help it - then lawlessness can only get worse. They HAVE to rebuild trust before it's too late.
N.B. To add just a little bit of context to my POV: In L.A. in 2013 one man was killed and one wounded in a police shooting. The Hispanic man killed was out looking for his brother's bike which he had reported stolen. He stepped forward to try to explain things to the police and was gunned down by multiple shots. Last month a 19 year old white driver was shot point blank from behind by a plain clothes officer engaged in a sting operation to buy marijuana(!) from the dead guy's female friend. The plain-clothes officer was alongside the car and fired through the driver's window because the car was supposedly driving towards him (defying the laws of physics).
Link 1: http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/l...ry.html#page=1
Link 2: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/...b0af35367aaa16
And just to repeat what I said above: U.S. police forces are doing themselves NO favours by denying / deflecting blame when it costs them the trust and co-operation of citizens. I hope the cooler / calmer heads among them realise this and start to acquiesce with reforms designed to remove the bad eggs and rotten odour percolating in their vicinity.
But he was spectacularly ignorant about whatever law(s) he was supposedly enforcing and I notice he did exactly the same as the Texas officer did with Sandra Bland - ordering the 'suspects' to step out of the car without telling them why. It may be the letter of the law but it is a practice wide open to abuse and it just doesn't sit right with me (which, granted, may be down to my European / anti-authoritarian sensibilities).*
*Other opinions are available, albeit at a much higher cost.
In the U.S. I think it all boils down to poor training and a culture of unaccountability which doesn't do the police themselves any favours. If significant numbers of citizens are wary of dealing with officers - I.e. don't trust them, don't believe them and won't call / interact them with if they can help it - then lawlessness can only get worse. They HAVE to rebuild trust before it's too late.
N.B. To add just a little bit of context to my POV: In L.A. in 2013 one man was killed and one wounded in a police shooting. The Hispanic man killed was out looking for his brother's bike which he had reported stolen. He stepped forward to try to explain things to the police and was gunned down by multiple shots. Last month a 19 year old white driver was shot point blank from behind by a plain clothes officer engaged in a sting operation to buy marijuana(!) from the dead guy's female friend. The plain-clothes officer was alongside the car and fired through the driver's window because the car was supposedly driving towards him (defying the laws of physics).
Link 1: http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/l...ry.html#page=1
Link 2: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/...b0af35367aaa16
And just to repeat what I said above: U.S. police forces are doing themselves NO favours by denying / deflecting blame when it costs them the trust and co-operation of citizens. I hope the cooler / calmer heads among them realise this and start to acquiesce with reforms designed to remove the bad eggs and rotten odour percolating in their vicinity.
Originally Posted by blueblade:
“Another videoed exchange that Tensing had with someone last year - link”
“Another videoed exchange that Tensing had with someone last year - link”
Good to see the driver had the sense (and was able!) to call him out without any crap, like being tased or shot for daring to try.
Originally Posted by tiggosaurus:
“Just watched the video on YouTube. Tensing wasn't particularly rude or aggressive (but then he wasn't with Sam DuBose either, up until the moment he shot him in the head).
But he was spectacularly ignorant about whatever law(s) he was supposedly enforcing and I notice he did exactly the same as the Texas officer did with Sandra Bland - ordering the 'suspects' to step out of the car without telling them why. It may be the letter of the law but it is a practice wide open to abuse and it just doesn't sit right with me (which, granted, may be down to my European / anti-authoritarian sensibilities).*
*Other opinions are available, albeit at a much higher cost.
In the U.S. I think it all boils down to poor training and a culture of unaccountability which doesn't do the police themselves any favours. If significant numbers of citizens are wary of dealing with officers - I.e. don't trust them, don't believe them and won't call / interact them with if they can help it - then lawlessness can only get worse. They HAVE to rebuild trust before it's too late.
N.B. To add just a little bit of context to my POV: In L.A. in 2013 one man was killed and one wounded in a police shooting. The Hispanic man killed was out looking for his brother's bike which he had reported stolen. He stepped forward to try to explain things to the police and was gunned down by multiple shots. Last month a 19 year old white driver was shot point blank from behind by a plain clothes officer engaged in a sting operation to buy marijuana(!) from the dead guy's female friend. The plain-clothes officer was alongside the car and fired through the driver's window because the car was supposedly driving towards him (defying the laws of physics).
Link 1: http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/l...ry.html#page=1
Link 2: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/...b0af35367aaa16
And just to repeat what I said above: U.S. police forces are doing themselves NO favours by denying / deflecting blame when it costs them the trust and co-operation of citizens. I hope the cooler / calmer heads among them realise this and start to acquiesce with reforms designed to remove the bad eggs and rotten odour percolating in their vicinity.”
“Just watched the video on YouTube. Tensing wasn't particularly rude or aggressive (but then he wasn't with Sam DuBose either, up until the moment he shot him in the head).
But he was spectacularly ignorant about whatever law(s) he was supposedly enforcing and I notice he did exactly the same as the Texas officer did with Sandra Bland - ordering the 'suspects' to step out of the car without telling them why. It may be the letter of the law but it is a practice wide open to abuse and it just doesn't sit right with me (which, granted, may be down to my European / anti-authoritarian sensibilities).*
*Other opinions are available, albeit at a much higher cost.
In the U.S. I think it all boils down to poor training and a culture of unaccountability which doesn't do the police themselves any favours. If significant numbers of citizens are wary of dealing with officers - I.e. don't trust them, don't believe them and won't call / interact them with if they can help it - then lawlessness can only get worse. They HAVE to rebuild trust before it's too late.
N.B. To add just a little bit of context to my POV: In L.A. in 2013 one man was killed and one wounded in a police shooting. The Hispanic man killed was out looking for his brother's bike which he had reported stolen. He stepped forward to try to explain things to the police and was gunned down by multiple shots. Last month a 19 year old white driver was shot point blank from behind by a plain clothes officer engaged in a sting operation to buy marijuana(!) from the dead guy's female friend. The plain-clothes officer was alongside the car and fired through the driver's window because the car was supposedly driving towards him (defying the laws of physics).
Link 1: http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/l...ry.html#page=1
Link 2: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/...b0af35367aaa16
And just to repeat what I said above: U.S. police forces are doing themselves NO favours by denying / deflecting blame when it costs them the trust and co-operation of citizens. I hope the cooler / calmer heads among them realise this and start to acquiesce with reforms designed to remove the bad eggs and rotten odour percolating in their vicinity.”
Wasn't Tensing fired?
Enicinia isn't in the same situation at least not at this time. An attorney even suggested that Bland should have complied and then complained.
Originally Posted by bollywood:
“Wasn't Tensing fired?
Enicinia isn't in the same situation at least not at this time. An attorney even suggested that Bland should have complied and then complained.”
“Wasn't Tensing fired?
Enicinia isn't in the same situation at least not at this time. An attorney even suggested that Bland should have complied and then complained.”
He was fired and is now claiming false dismissal.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-accounts.html
Originally Posted by anne_666:
“He was fired and is now claiming false dismissal.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-accounts.html”
“He was fired and is now claiming false dismissal.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-accounts.html”
That will be a moot point of he's convicted.
Originally Posted by bollywood:
“Wasn't Tensing fired?
Enicinia isn't in the same situation at least not at this time. An attorney even suggested that Bland should have complied and then complained.”
“Wasn't Tensing fired?
Enicinia isn't in the same situation at least not at this time. An attorney even suggested that Bland should have complied and then complained.”
Yes, I believe Tensing has been fired. That's not quite what I meant by accountability though. If a police officer commits a crime in the course of their duties then they should be held to account in the same way as any other citizen would be. We both know that's not the case though - for example it's extremely rare for officers to be charged with perjury, let alone conspiracy to pervert the course of justice or manslaughter or murder.
FWIW, the DA who condemned Ray Tensing's conduct in shooting Samuel DuBose during a routine traffic stop was probably the polar opposite of the one who criticised Sandra Bland's response to the officer she encountered. Maybe a more common sense and less politicised justice system would better serve the rights enshrined in the Constitution and the interests of US society as a whole... ?
Any thoughts on the best way forward? Or do you think that things will eventually work themselves out without legislative change? I would be interested to hear your views on some of the other points I raise above, such as how perception of the police affects their effectiveness in dealing with communities who have long since grown to distrust them.
12 of 13
