[digimon900]

I am probably dumb and boring to most by asking this but... What exactly is HD? I know that its high definition and clearer pictures etc. But it seems to differ so much!
I have a Roku 3 and I use BBC iplayer to watch live BBC1, awesome crystal clear HD picture and audio that cant be faulted. However if I the watch the same programme on demand iplayer the picture is remarkably higher quality HD! Live ITV is sometimes low quality on the Roku and other times its HD and has the ITV HD logo in the corner. I see on Now TV that Sky 1 and Sky arts are always HD, but Discovery and MTV have poor quality picture and audio. Today I noticed that if I play the DVD (not blu ray) of Toy story in my DVD player its ok, but if I then put the same disc in my blu ray player the picture and sound then become awesome in quality! I know that the toy story DVD is not HD because its a dvd and I bought it years ago before HD was available.
I have also noticed that blu ray players that do not have internet connectivity (a rare thing nowadays) produce a far more superior image playing dvd and blu ray discs than those that incorporate on demand and network services.

[Chasing Shadows]

Quote:

Originally Posted by digimon900

I have also noticed that blu ray players that do not have internet connectivity (a rare thing nowadays) produce a far more superior image playing dvd and blu ray discs than those that incorporate on demand and network services.

...whereas I have noticed the complete opposite. My first BluRay player - which had no internet apps built into it, did not support BD Live, and was simply a BluRay player which I had to update by downloading firmware changes from the manufacturer's website, burn to CD or USB stick, then update the machine by booting with the disc or stick in place and holding down certain keys on the remote - has a picture quality far worse than the two Blu Ray players (one by the same manufacturer, one by a different manufacturer) that have replaced it.

So perhaps when you say you have noticed this phenomenon - do you actually mean that you have seen two different Blu Ray players, produced by two completely different manufacturers and perhaps even connected to two completely different TV sets - and noticed that one machine has a better picture than the other?

Did you check how the two different machines were connected to their TV sets? Did you see exactly the same material played on the two different machines (the same DVD disc, the same Blu Ray disc)?

As Blu Ray players became standard supporting BD-Live (2.0) early 2008, and no Blu Ray players have been manufactured since that support only Bonus View (1.1) which didn't have internet connectivity, any Blu Ray player that you have seen recently which didn't support connection to the internet is over seven years old, I seriously doubt that you have consistently seen better ones without internet connection than with.

[skinj]

HD ,very simply put, means that the image being sent to a display screen contains a certain level of detail, in the case of Full HD this is 1920 pixels wide by 1080 high.
Sadly there are lots of different ways to transport this information from the source to the display, most of which involve the compression & encoding of the data. This allows less data to be needed to make up the image and means the transport of it is cheaper &/or allows more stations/streams to be broadcast/sent by the supplier or more episode of a series to be crammed on to a disc. It's a bit like having an orchestra and deciding that you don't need 8 violinists because 4 will suffice and most people won't notice the difference. the music essentially is ill played an people still enjoy it despite something being missing.
Different broadcasters/streamer/disc producers will use different methods to compress the information which is why their will be varying results between sources, also some of them will supply a lower level of HD picture that whilst still technically is still HD is not at the same level as others.
These issues are compounded by the opposite issues at the receiving end of the signal/broadcast/disc playback. The item playing the source has to uncompress/decode the data supplied to it. Some machine/displays will do this part better than others which is another reason why you will notice the difference.
As far a network connected player not being as good at sound/picture quality as non network machines, I can't quite see that as a rule but maybe just a trend that you have seen in a limited selection of machines you have seen. Connected devices are the "big thing" at the moment so the low cost device with wifi/network capability will be sacrificing something to keep the cost low and the features high, probably impacting the sound/picture. In the higher end, where picture/sound is the main feature, these won't be affected by the incorporation on net connections but the units will be significantly more expensive.

[anthony david]

Although the quality of HD sources is usually good, the quality of upscaled SD depends on the source material and the quality of the upscaler. Up market TVs such as those by Sony have very good upscaling systems and as a result DVDs of older softer material looks better when the player is set to SD and the TV does the upscaling. Toy story is a poor test as it is just computer animation.

[digimon900]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chasing Shadows

...whereas I have noticed the complete opposite. My first BluRay player - which had no internet apps built into it, did not support BD Live, and was simply a BluRay player which I had to update by downloading firmware changes from the manufacturer's website, burn to CD or USB stick, then update the machine by booting with the disc or stick in place and holding down certain keys on the remote - has a picture quality far worse than the two Blu Ray players (one by the same manufacturer, one by a different manufacturer) that have replaced it.

So perhaps when you say you have noticed this phenomenon - do you actually mean that you have seen two different Blu Ray players, produced by two completely different manufacturers and perhaps even connected to two completely different TV sets - and noticed that one machine has a better picture than the other?

Did you check how the two different machines were connected to their TV sets? Did you see exactly the same material played on the two different machines (the same DVD disc, the same Blu Ray disc)?

As Blu Ray players became standard supporting BD-Live (2.0) early 2008, and no Blu Ray players have been manufactured since that support only Bonus View (1.1) which didn't have internet connectivity, any Blu Ray player that you have seen recently which didn't support connection to the internet is over seven years old, I seriously doubt that you have consistently seen better ones without internet connection than with.

Same TV set same material. I am not sure why you think that blu ray players with no Internet connection were not manufactured recently, as I have been able to buy two in the past few days off the shelf at walmart. In the USA its a mandatory requirement for the date of manufacture to be visible to the consumer and they were manufactured in April 2015. I did have a Sony connected player around 4 years old, but the apps all stopped being supported and it only played discs. I upgraded to a smart tv and in the name of simplicity sough out a blu ray player that needed no Internet connection. Updating the firmware is of no importance, when a device has no bugs and does not connect to any device other than to show an image on screen. The picture from my $40 Philips stand alone player is far superior to that of my late $200 Sony connected player. My testing was not comprehensive or exhaustive, merely observatory...

[digimon900]

Quote:

Originally Posted by anthony david

Toy story is a poor test as it is just computer animation.

Looked good though, the test was a result of not being able to find the dvd remote and resorting to playing it in the blu ray player

[Nigel Goodwin]

Quote:

Originally Posted by digimon900

Looked good though, the test was a result of not being able to find the dvd remote and resorting to playing it in the blu ray player

That's because your TV has a poor scaler, and BD players generally have pretty good ones. If you had a Sony TV (which have good scalers) you probably wouldn't notice much (if any) difference.

I'm not really sure why you have both DVD and BD players?.

[digimon900]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nigel Goodwin

That's because your TV has a poor scaler, and BD players generally have pretty good ones. If you had a Sony TV (which have good scalers) you probably wouldn't notice much (if any) difference.

I'm not really sure why you have both DVD and BD players?.

My Tv is Sony! The DVD player is from England its region 2, although has since been unlocked for any region. I also unlocked the Blu ray but only for any region DVD not Blu ray discs that is locked to the US region A. The blu ray will go in the living room later, when they have finished causing dust installing fire alarms, and I upgrade the TV to a 48". There is a dvd recorder with hard drive in there right now - its also from England and unlocked for any region, the 26" Sony Tv in there is a Freeview one from the UK too.

[Chasing Shadows]

Quote:

Originally Posted by digimon900

Same TV set same material. I am not sure why you think that blu ray players with no Internet connection were not manufactured recently, as I have been able to buy two in the past few days off the shelf at walmart. In the USA its a mandatory requirement for the date of manufacture to be visible to the consumer and they were manufactured in April 2015.

Just realised that you are based in America, not Europe. Sorry about that.

I had a look on Walmart's own online website for what BD Players they sell - and you are correct, they do indeed list some players (LG BP145, Sony BDSP5200) that only support BD-Profile 1.1 (BonusView). The same Sony product in the UK and Europe supports BD-Profile 2.0 (BD-Live). It's only the American model which doesn't connect to the internet, for some reason.

The oldest LG model still manufactured for sale in the UK is the LG BP325 - which first appeared back in 2012, and of course supports BD-Live. They did manufacture a product for the UK called the LG BP125 which was similar to the BP145 in that it didn't have an internet connection - but they stopped making this in 2012.

So why they are still making a product for sale in America three years later which doesn't support BD-Live I don't know?

You can't buy rubbish like the stuff advertised on Walmart's site without BD-Live in Europe, and haven't been able to for years. Perhaps internet connectivity in the USA is not as widespread as it is in the UK - therefore there is still a market for non-internet enabled equipment?

[Nigel Goodwin]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chasing Shadows

So why they are still making a product for sale in America three years later which doesn't support BD-Live I don't know?

Presumably because it makes it cheaper?.

[digimon900]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nigel Goodwin

Presumably because it makes it cheaper?.

Its probably not cheaper manufacturing wise, but there is a federal mandate (I can never remember what its called) that requires some manufacturers to create and market simplified versions of most technology on the market, for which they receive a government subsidy. This is to assist non technically minded people and the elderly to use and take up the technology, (mobile phone companies milk this subsidy like hell). It was enacted into law when the digital switchover took hold eliminating the analog transmissions over the air. The main reason that blu ray players were connected here in the USA was for users of Netflix to view directly when they ceased their postal dvd rentals 2009-2010. Most people have them for Vudu movies and Netflix, although today you are far more likely to purchase a Roku, amazon TV, or a Smart TV set. Sales of Blu ray players are extremely low and most people are now only purchasing them to play the discs. BD live is not touted or referred to here in the USA, before reading this thread I had never heard of it. I cant find any movies/discs/media that refer to any extra content being available if used in a connected device, and I scoured the shelves of FYE and Walmart.

[spiney2]

generally, standard hd gives 4 times the visual resolution (2 vertical x 2 horizontal) as sd. But is normally encoded as h264, an improved codec, which requires only x2 data rate for x4 picture improvement! But, the usual considerations apply, and data rates are always "squeezed" for commercial reasons. So, on "hd" sources, you can get anything and everything between actual hd, and no better than sd ...........

[digimon900]

Quote:

Originally Posted by spiney2

generally, standard hd gives 4 times the visual resolution (2 vertical x 2 horizontal) as sd. But is normally encoded as h264, an improved codec, which requires only x2 data rate for x4 picture improvement! But, the usual considerations apply, and data rates are always "squeezed" for commercial reasons. So, on "hd" sources, you can get anything and everything between actual hd, and no better than sd ...........

I don't understand why the iplayer is better quality when using on demand than watching a live stream though

[grahamlthompson]

Quote:

Originally Posted by digimon900

I don't understand why the iplayer is better quality when using on demand than watching a live stream though

Depends on which version of iplayer. There is a HD version that delivers 720p25 (1280 x 720) content which is close to broadcast HD in quality and superior to broadcast SD (576i).

[digimon900]

Quote:

Originally Posted by grahamlthompson

Depends on which version of iplayer. There is a HD version that delivers 720p25 (1280 x 720) content which is close to broadcast HD in quality and superior to broadcast SD (576i).

How can I tell which one I have?

BTW demand 5 is the worst app ever for quality and reliability, while all4, and ITV deliver HD, demand 5 is choppy and fuzzy!

[grahamlthompson]

Quote:

Originally Posted by digimon900

How can I tell which one I have?

BTW demand 5 is the worst app ever for quality and reliability, while all4, and ITV deliver HD, demand 5 is choppy and fuzzy!

ITV is by far the worst quality, none of the other UK free catch up services are HD.

Can you measure the bitrate ?

I will post typical data for iplayer in HD.

[digimon900]

No way to measure the bit rate and ITV is always in HD and has the itv HD logo onscreen

[grahamlthompson]

Quote:

Originally Posted by digimon900

No way to measure the bit rate and ITV is always in HD and has the itv HD logo onscreen

Because the HD logo is on the screen it doesn't mean it's streamed in HD. Any ITV player content we get in the UK certainly isn't HD. It's very poor quality SD (probably 544 x 576 interlaced.

I take it you can't save the content to a hard disk file ?

If not reset your router, play back an hour of ITV and look how many bytes you got.

Youtube has full-HD 1080p content (and some 4k)

Typical data for iplayer-HD content

General
Complete name The Musketeers Ep 1.mp4
Format : MPEG-4
Codec ID : M4V
File size : 1 006 MiB
Duration : 58mn 38s
Overall bit rate mode : Variable
Overall bit rate : 2 399 Kbps
Encoded date : UTC 2014-12-26 13:10:15
Tagged date : UTC 2014-12-26 13:10:15

Video
ID : 1
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : High@L4.1
Format settings, CABAC : Yes
Format settings, ReFrames : 2 frames
Codec ID : avc1
Codec ID/Info : Advanced Video Coding
Duration : 58mn 38s
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 2 300 Kbps
Maximum bit rate : 3 500 Kbps
Width : 1 280 pixels
Height : 720 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate mode : Constant
Frame rate : 25.000 fps
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.100
Stream size : 965 MiB (96%)
Encoded date : UTC 2014-12-26 13:10:15
Tagged date : UTC 2014-12-26 13:10:15

Audio
ID : 2
Format : AAC
Format/Info : Advanced Audio Codec
Format profile : LC
Codec ID : 40
Duration : 58mn 38s
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 96.0 Kbps
Channel(s) : 2 channels
Channel positions : Front: L R
Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz
Compression mode : Lossy
Stream size : 39.2 MiB (4%)
Encoded date : UTC 2014-12-26 13:10:15
Tagged date : UTC 2014-12-26 13:10:15

[digimon900]

There is no way to save it to a disc or anything, its directly in the TV and its definitely HD, on ITV and BBC.

[grahamlthompson]

Quote:

Originally Posted by digimon900

There is no way to save it to a disc or anything, its directly in the TV and its definitely HD, on ITV and BBC.

I think there must be some confusion. ITV Player and BBC Iplayer are IP locked to UK locations. Without a VPN or SmartDNS server you won't be able to watch and I doubt you can buy a TV in the US with the apps on anyway. They aren't a broadcast service.

It must be a local service and most likely is not free.

You can measure the bitrate as I indicated by measuring the data downloaded by your router, assuming it is streamed over the internet.

[Peter the Great]

Quote:

Originally Posted by digimon900

There is no way to save it to a disc or anything, its directly in the TV and its definitely HD, on ITV and BBC.

It can't be on ITV . BBC iplayer is the only catch up service that offers HD unless you have Sky (Demand 5 is HD on virgin media).

[grahamlthompson]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter the Great

It can't be on ITV . BBC iplayer is the only catch up service that offers HD unless you have Sky (Demand 5 is HD on virgin media).

The poster is in the USA, I think that would be rather hard to access via satellite

[digimon900]

Quote:

Originally Posted by grahamlthompson

I think there must be some confusion. ITV Player and BBC Iplayer are IP locked to UK locations. Without a VPN or SmartDNS server you won't be able to watch and I doubt you can buy a TV in the US with the apps on anyway. They aren't a broadcast service.

It must be a local service and most likely is not free.

You can measure the bitrate as I indicated by measuring the data downloaded by your router, assuming it is streamed over the internet.

Its Free and its exactly the same as you get in the UK. You buy a Now TV box or Roku 3 in the UK and mail it to the USA. The Phone Internet and TV are all the same as the UK with an 0203 London number and the ability to dial within the UK no long distance or overseas calls. You simply sign up with @###@#%%%$$%#@$%# in the UK, then you obtain the details of the Internet connection's PPTP set up, clone the mac address of the provider's router/equipment into a router capable of PPTP and Mac cloning and use the British ISP to connect your Now TV or Roku3. Thousands of people in Spain do this, which is where I first saw it done.
It would be impossible to use the router to measure data as it handles the local phone/tv and many other applications at the same time.

[grahamlthompson]

Quote:

Originally Posted by digimon900

Its Free and its exactly the same as you get in the UK. You buy a Now TV box or Roku 3 in the UK and mail it to the USA. The Phone Internet and TV are all the same as the UK with an 0203 London number and the ability to dial within the UK no long distance or overseas calls. You simply sign up with @###@#%%%$$%#@$%# in the UK, then you obtain the details of the Internet connection's PPTP set up, clone the mac address of the provider's router/equipment into a router capable of PPTP and Mac cloning and use the British ISP to connect your Now TV or Roku3. Thousands of people in Spain do this, which is where I first saw it done.
It would be impossible to use the router to measure data as it handles the local phone/tv and many other applications at the same time.

There is no ITV on demand service in the UK in HD. As anyone who has a Roku will testify.

Google ITV player quality on www.google.co.uk

Random example

https://uk.trustpilot.com/review/itvplayer.co.uk



I have multiple devices with ITV player none of them are HD.

[the power king]

Quote:

Originally Posted by anthony david

Although the quality of HD sources is usually good, the quality of upscaled SD depends on the source material and the quality of the upscaler. Up market TVs such as those by Sony have very good upscaling systems and as a result DVDs of older softer material looks better when the player is set to SD and the TV does the upscaling. Toy story is a poor test as it is just computer animation.

I argee with the Sony Bit when on Sd when tv Channel is Hd i always have Hd Channel on Some Programmers Sc-he as BBC Breakfast weekday /News @6 /South Today / Sky 2 are Sd only all others Times Switch to Hd if i have BBC News@10 as South today Ends as BBC 1 Weather i Swatch over to BBC 1 Hd when iget new Movies i get theme on Blu-ray