Options
RTD and Moffat - Only the good stuff
doctor blue box
Posts: 7,396 Forum Member
✭
After all the endless RTD vs Moffat stuff we so often seem to slip back into (and I include myself in that) I thought it would be good to do a thread where only positive's about both era's are acknowledged and celebrated.
The idea is for anyone to come on and say what they like about the aspects of what each show runner has brought to the show in respect to their writing of individual episodes, how they handled the running of their era or anything positive you would like to say in general about a positive thing you think they did for the show, but all without having to resort to saying anything negative about the other show runner to do so.
Please though do not use a positive comment about one of them as a way to make a negative about the other such ' X did this well, unlike Y who was rubbish at it' or anything like that, and also please do not mock what or judge what others see as positive as we have so many threads where those miserable elements are apparent and the point of this is that I'm trying to create a thread where for once we talk about both era's in the same thread and the whole thing stays completely happy and positive as a celebration of both era's as opposed to the usual competition talk between them.
I'll put my own thoughts in a separate post below, and would be great to hear others. Lets see if we can try and keep a nice thread going as long as some of the more negative ones
The idea is for anyone to come on and say what they like about the aspects of what each show runner has brought to the show in respect to their writing of individual episodes, how they handled the running of their era or anything positive you would like to say in general about a positive thing you think they did for the show, but all without having to resort to saying anything negative about the other show runner to do so.
Please though do not use a positive comment about one of them as a way to make a negative about the other such ' X did this well, unlike Y who was rubbish at it' or anything like that, and also please do not mock what or judge what others see as positive as we have so many threads where those miserable elements are apparent and the point of this is that I'm trying to create a thread where for once we talk about both era's in the same thread and the whole thing stays completely happy and positive as a celebration of both era's as opposed to the usual competition talk between them.
I'll put my own thoughts in a separate post below, and would be great to hear others. Lets see if we can try and keep a nice thread going as long as some of the more negative ones
0
Comments
Moffat: I love that he makes the effort to create a lot of off world stories. I like that during his time as showrunner companions have had a lengthy stay, so if i've liked any particular companions or not, at least it feels like they have had time to properly be explored. I like that he did the show's 50 years justice with day of the doctor, which is not only a brilliant story in it's own right but also I feel a fitting tribute to the anniversary which it marked. I love his creation of the character of river song and the fact that she got the chance to be so explored in his era (and hope there is more to come with her). Plus the paternoster gang, who are such fun every time they appear. Again a shout out for good casting, for me in particular with the Smith, Capaldi and Alex kingston, (amongst others). Also I'd add that Every episode he wrote when unburdened with the responsibilities of showrunner between 2005-2008 were all absolutely fantastic and without a dud amongst them. In recent times episode wise, his most recent, Last Christmas was brilliant, and has made me look forward more to what is to come.
P.s almost forgot to mention Missy. Her introduction is a real positive for me. Had anyone asked me beforehand I think I would have been against A female master, but Moffat and Gomez really pulled it off making her work between them, and I'm looking forward to seeing more of her..
These are just some of mine of the top of my head. There's probably more positive stuff I could say about both their contributions that I haven't even remembered here, but the points I've put are the one's that are popping up in my head at the moment as the most obvious positives.
MOFFAT: I love the reoccurring characters - River Song (LOVE so much) and the Paternoster Gang. I love Kate Lethbridge-Stewart and Osgood. And now I am completely besotted with Missy.
I just wanted to say how extremely happy I am that two of the leading writers in their industry, multi award winning, and internationally acclaimed also just so happen to be fans of the show and are willing to give that much more than could be hoped. I also feel blessed that the role of the Doctor has been played by a series of well respected actors who are also fans of the show (to varying degrees). I really do feel that any other show should be envious of Doctor Who's position. Really I come from a time when Doctor Who was regarded as a joke, when I would be ashamed to admit that I was a fan of the series, so I still have to pinch myself when I think about how it is today.
Broadly speaking I have a slight preference to Moffat's era but I am so grateful to RTD for making the show relevant again and for encouraging people to take it seriously and I am grateful to Moffat for continuing his fine work, for keeping the show as popular as ever (despite everyone in the industry expecting it become less so). Whatever the future holds I hope any new show runners coming can continue the precedent set by RTD and Moffat...
I can remember that not so many years ago sci fi seemed to still be regarded as rather niche and a bit nerdy amongst the mainstream. The doctor who revival was the first real sci fi production that I can remember where there was a sci fi show that it was normal for people to talk about unashamedly in the mainstream, and as you say, even cool to do so. The media go went crazy for it too and still seem to now.
When you think now about how sci fi has exploded in popularity in recent years, I like to think that doctor who's popularity around the world was a factor in proving that there was a market for well done sci fi, and that if made accessible like who, could appeal to almost any demographic.
Moffat: Though they're often fleeting, Moffat occasionally comes across a thought or a frame of mind for a companion that makes for compelling viewing or mixes things up a bit. I'm thinking of the decision for Clara to change the pace and keep two lives going at once - whilst I won't say much for the way it was handled in Series 8 in regards to Danny Pink, the general idea is a lot more sensible and allows for something a bit different. It gives the companion a different frame of mind, and allows their story to play out alongside The Doctor over a greater period of his life...making the longevity of the characters a little more poginant.
RTD: He could write a deux ex machina that was satisfying. Not every time, but do you know how difficult that is?! The Series 1 finale ranks as probably my favourite ever episode of Doctor Who - despite the deux ex machina resolution. If anything he manages to pull it off in a way that isn't only satisfying, but is also better than anything I'd likely have envisioned or predicted at the time (I was only, like, 13)
Moffat: This is where I'm going to be a bit of a rebel, because it's often hard to compliment something without also highlighting a flaw as well. Moffat can write the Doctor brilliantly, be he the old-and-young Matt Smith, or the lovely-and-grouchy Peter Capaldi. I do think he has a tendency to occasionally write the character as a bit more of a caricature (too many catchphrases) but when that and the witty puns subside, he just gets it in a way that makes the Doctor interesting himself, rather than just a vessel for the interesting companion.
RTD: I'm not sure I can pinpoint what it is, and to a certain extent I'd say that Moffat did the same in Series 5 and 8, but there is a certain flowing poetry to the writing and direction. Series 1 to 4 all had an Earth invasion story as its first two-parter, there'd be the dark, innovative story as the second two-parter and then the large-scale series finale as the third. Whilst some may call this repetitive, I'd say it was very tidy. It kept things coherent, and whilst you never knew what to expect in the stories themselves it afforded the show a certain tone that meant you knew what you were tuning in to watch.
Moffat: I think he's got the Dalek stories more or less right. Not to say that they're my favourite but in terms of their quantity he's nailed it - three one-part stories across four series, and then what's coming in Series 9 it's an annual appearance but not overly intrusive.
RTD: Substance over style.
Moffat: Style to compliment an equal amount of substance.
RTD: Donna Noble
Moffat: Clara Oswald
RTD: Christopher Eccleston
Moffat: Peter Capaldi
Was the driving force who brought the show back! Excellent 'management' of the show I think, with hindsight: so many things could have gone wrong and there were challenges (losing your Doctor after 1 series) as well. But he steered the show through it and found a format that worked. Return of iconic elements of the series (Daleks, Cybermen, Time Lords, Sontaran, UNIT) mixed in well with new creations (Ood, Torchwood, Angels).
Good at writing relationships.
Very good at creating non-traditional episodes - Blink, Midnight, Turn Left, Girl in the Fireplace, Human Nature. Story arcs usually well judged.
Moffat
Can be both funny and scary, often at the same time. Amy/Rory were an excellent and well-written pairing and probably exemplify this.
Understands the show and its history - he was the perfect person to oversee the 50th.
A wonderful imagination. He is fantastic at the big ideas, and has found ways to explore complex and interesting themes over the show. Though we have to admit that his work lacks consistency, when he gets it right he really nails it. As part of this, his use of graphics/design and special effects are all excellent.
I consider him a very good screenwriter who happens to not be particularly to my taste. But that doesn't stop me appreciating his fantastic work on the show. The reason the show is still here to become a legacy and a franchise is because of his creative contribution. I know it wasn't him alone but I do think the tone and style of the show came from him and it is that which was so successful and still pertains now. He is simultaneously a very populist writer whilst also having a fantastic sense of drama.
His success speaks for itself.
The thing I think a lot of people fail to take into account, even those who are RTD fans and regard his era as the gold standard, is that the format he created for the show is still used now. By that I don't just mean 45 minute episodes with next week trailers, pre-credits sequences and a light 'arc' running through a season, although certainly that successful template still remains, but the whole narrative format too. The companion is the main focus of the show: that was his innovation. We see the Doctor through their eyes. The seasons' arc is essentially their arc. What he saw brilliantly is that it is impossible to develop the character of the Doctor because he is an archetype forever set in stone. The worst things he and Moffat have done is where they've tried to bring change or progression to the Doctor's life, because the format of the show cannot withstand that: he must always remain the same familiar, beloved figure. Any attempt to mess with that is false drama, always forgotten come the next season. But what CAN change and develop is the companion character. They have no rules. They can be as good and interesting and deep a character as the writer can make them. Anything can happen to their lives. Their story can surprise you. They won't revert to type next season; they may not even have a next season. Their lives can actually grow and develop. Therefore their drama is more real because the audience know it is truly meaningful. We know that the 'Time Lord Triumphant' will be his daffy self again next week or that the brooding Scrooge Doctor of 'The Snowman' will be off on wonderful adventures with his companions again come the new series as if that period of his life never happened, and that is not the writer's fault, but the companion is a different story.
To me, that is the single best thing about RTD's vision for the show and still it's lifeblood now. The worst criticism I see of the show is when people say it's too centered on the companion. I believe that is the biggest thing actually keeping the show vital. It may be ten years old now (the current series) but in essence it stays new because of the companions and their changing lives and changing stories. They aren't plot devices or window dressing now. That was his biggest achievement.
Moffat continues his work, in his own style of course, but essentially he's changed nothing.
Surely this comment (as well as being factually dubious) is against the spirit of this thread. We don't want your defence of Moffat and your digs at those who criticise his work (which will inevitably lead to counter views and so the circle continues) we want to know what he's done that you think is good (and better still, why you think it's good). I'm afraid it just re-inforces the belief that you are indeed a Moffat fanboy - "I just like Moffat's work but I can't actually tell you what I like or why it's good".
I think surely the point that Tom was making is that he has said on numerous other threads why he thinks that Moffat's work is good in his defence of him so didn't feel the need to repeat that here. Instead a 'Moffat fan-boy' gave an impassioned account of why he appreciates RTD's work. Surely that counts for something?
In the word of Missy - 'say something nice'
And yet your only post on here is to knock someone, without giving your good opinions of either showrunner. Please, don't let it descend into anything further.
Anyway:
RTD: I enjoyed all of his era, just as much as I'm enjoying Moffatt's. I thought re-introducing the character of 'the Doctor' with his history being explained gradually was incredibly clever. Were he to just throw up the whole history of him as a TimeLord on screen, I fear we would not now be discussing the good stuff from more than the one new era showrunner! And with that, I enjoyed the simplicity of his storytelling. I wholeheartedly agree with Tom Tit (and that rarely happens...
Moffatt: Strangely, it is for mostly opposing reasons that I adore Moffatt's run. I like the fact that there have been more and more nods and references to the classic era since Moff took the reigns. And I like the convoluted and clever storylines - my favourite example of which is the Doctor's escape from the Pandorica... Whether the logic holds up or not isn't the issue - it tells an amazing story that you want to believe works (I feel it does, btw, but that's for those who don't). I also love that the loss of Gallifrey has been undone in a way that does absolutely nothing to change what came before - the previous Doctors still will feel like they destroyed Gallifrey, so none of that pathos I enjoyed is lost or replaced.
I also like that they have both written two fantastic and different Doctors each - although I do think that a lot of the credit for this one should go to the actors themselves!
I'll just say that in the early 90's I'd pretty much given up on seeing any more seasons of Who. The immediately successful return in 2005 was a delight to behold. I've liked both eras, and even the weakest stories have not been entirely devoid of merit. (I'd personally say that of all Who stories. Is there such a thing as a 'flawless' era, btw? Don't think so myself.)
I marginally prefer the SM era, but Series 4 is second only to Series 5 in my personal geek list. And Donna is my favourite companion of all time.
Again echoing Sebbie's post, I've enjoyed all the Doctor's incarnations in C21 Who, and if you'd told young me in the 90's that not only would Who come back and thrive, but it would even have John effing Hurt playing the role, I would have reached for my butterfly net.
And thanks to RTD and SM and many others, I have a wonderful connection with my young relatives who absolutely love the show. Moments like where I'm asked if they could borrow my Dalek Invasion of Earth DVD just make me smile. Watching my youngest niece 'flying' the TARDIS from it's console in an 'experience' in my home flaming city...didn't see any of *that* coming!
I can be a cynical beggar, but not when it comes to this programme. Yeah, it's 'only' a TV show, but it's the only one where I think of a morning, Oh it's on tonight. New episode. Great! (I mean, it's not always 'great', but you know what I mean.) That was the case in 2005. Remains the case in 2015. Can't quite believe we've already had another decade of Doctor Who. But we have. And that's marvellous.
RTD: Jackie Tyler. Great character, well used. Excellent In-Your-Face total Earth invasions.
SM: Doctor eradicating himself from archives & the cracks undoing some of his fame and human memory of the invasions. Just perfect balance that implies zero criticism of all the invasions. Also - Fez.
Moffat: Incredibly witty writer, knows how to tickle my funny bone. He's pulled off some big twists, he's an incredibly engaging writer who has written and cast my two favourite Doctors and my favourite companion. Masterminded the 50th, which was an absolute masterpiece. Not only lived up to RTD's hype but kept the show rolling and continued RTD's fine work in increasing its status as a worldwide juggernaut. Knows how to write both exceptional, blow you away standalone eps and how to execute a series finale. I think his Master twist would have been up there with RTD's if it hadn't been largely anticipated beforehand.
I'd also add to that apart from the show being in good health, it's the only non factual show that I know of that not only keeps getting renewed but is automatically expected to, in the sense that its so successful people see it as a given that it will be renewed every year, as it feels unimaginable at this point that they would cancel it.
I even think those article's pretending the show is failing are sort of complimentary in a weird way because obviously the media likes shocking stories, so to claim a show that most think of strong is actually failing is a shocking story that would peak interest, however untrue. What I'm saying is they know that a really unpopular show wouldn't be worth writing those sort of stories about because not enough people would care or be surprised, but with a show like who, they know it is so successful that to suggest otherwise sounds interesting.
Also regarding your last sentence, I agree completely with it. Whatever preference any of us has for either era, looking at both as a whole, the fact is RTD initially generated the success and popularity for the shows revival, and Moffat has kept up that success and popularity and the mantle of the show remains strong and will almost certainly be there to be passed on.
Fair point, but it was Tom Tit that started to derail the thread by having a go at those who criticise Moffat, not me.
As it happens, I haven't contributed to this thread as I respect the original poster's intentions. But as you ask, for me, Moffat wrote one of the greatest episodes of Doctor Who ever, "The Girl in The Fireplace", but since he became show runner my opinion is that he has (literally) lost the plot.
RTD
He started the New Who
Without him, today maybe we wouldn't have watched modern Who. He brought the show back and we all need to thank him for that.
Characters
What I appreciate the most about his writting is character development. I do not know why, but his companions and other characters seemed like real people, not just movie characters. And that's not easy to achieve, what proves that he is an excellent writer. The great thing is that all companions returned even after they left the TARDIS, it's always good to see old friends back. It makes the impression that their story never ends, and also it is good to see their chemistry with other Doctors and companions who came after them. I think it's better if they were one or two seasons on the TARDIS and then make a guest appearances in the following seasons than they are on the TARDIS for three or four seasons, and then never show up again.
Also, there were some very imaginative supporting characters and alien species, such as catkind.
Episodes
There were also some very good episodes he wrote I want to mention. For example, Midnight is one of my favourites, Gridlock is excellent as well. Some of his episodes are very underrated, such as Planet of the Dead, Partners in Crime and Smith and Jones.
Also, some of my all time favorites (which he didn't write) are in his era, such as Human Nature / The Family of Blood, Blink, The Girl in the Fireplace, Shakespeare Code etc.
Moffat
Episodes
To begin, he wrote countless of fantastic episodes - Blink, Pandorica Opens / Big Bang, Snowmen, Eleventh Hour, The Name of the Doctor, Day of the Doctor... are just some of them. It was by far the best writer in the RTD era and logical successor.
Finales and arcs
While RTD focused too much on invasions and present-day Earth, Moffat wrote very immaginative and original finales. Pandorica is the masterpiece IMO, The Name of the Doctor is brilliant and The Wedding of River Song is a little bit messy but the very good conclusion of the series 6 arc. His finales was always direct resolution of the arc. And his arcs always included mistery that kept our attention during the whole season.
Villans
Silence, Weeping angels, Whisper Men, Clockwork droids... Do I need to say more?
Christmas specials (...I mean, CHRISTMAS specials)
I really like Christmas stories and every winter I really enjoy immaginative and relaxing Doctor Who Christmas stories written by Moffat. The point of the Christmas specials is not that it was broadcasted on Christmas day but Christmas atmosphere which can be seen and felt in the episode. And Moffat's Christmas specials are just like that. Also, I was impressed when I saw Santa Claus in the Last Christmas. I taught that Moffat would never do it after The Doctor, The Widow and the Wardrobe was criticized for being 'fairytalish' (although I still don't understand why is this a bad thing, especially for a Christmas story), but Moffat was brave enough to do it, and the brilliant Last Christmas was born!
Timey-wimey
Doctor Who is a show about time travel, and using time as a plot device is a very logical choice. Timey wimey is what can be done in Doctor Who, but not in the any other show. This is making Doctor Who different and original and we need to use it.
I could write more good stuff about both writters...
As a result I think Doctor Who is at its best when the two of them work together.
The Empty Child / The Doctor Dances, The Girl In The Fireplace, Blink and Silence In The Library / Forest Of The Dead remain some of my favourite episodes.
I have to agree with you - Moffat's imaginative stories matched with RTD's characters. A very good combination.
Silence In The Library/Forest Of The Dead worked brilliantly for me because it had the 10th Doctor and Donna at the heart of the story with a very intriguing story wrapped around them.
What RTD had but Moffat doesn't is a writer who can be guaranteed to turn in a couple of great scripts each series that don't require the show runner to do extensive rewrites!
If only SM had an RTD to turn in a Midnight or Turn Left level of quality episode for each series. RTD had that Coupling fella turn in some really good scripts which must have made his job a lot easier at times! :-)
This is what the news report says about it:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-15165926
And current DW head show runner Steven Moffatt said this about it, and I quote:
"pulling the BBC's public funding would be 'vandalism of the worst kind' ".
What do you think? Will it affect any more series of DW?