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Samsung killed Android and sale by 'specs' to become less relevant?


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Old 31-08-2015, 00:02
oilman
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The problem is an OS isn't a format and I think the VHS vs Betamax assumes there would be 1 deciding platform, we've had 30 years of Microsoft Apple and Linux platforms without the need to have a decider.

There won't be 1 that wins, there will always be a few for the foreseeable future or until technology changes significantly, but I think Android is on the back foot at the moment and has had a setback because of the likes of Samsung and some of the recent issues.
I really think 95+% of the buying public would not care an iota. All they would care about is how much data and free minutes, and does the handset look nice.

We are the sad physicists from HHGTTG.
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Old 31-08-2015, 00:32
tghe-retford
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Android is fine for low end, cheap devices - it dominates there, such as the Moto G range. Where the problem lies is that mainstream manufacturers have got greedy and are trying to out-do Apple on price and have abandoned the mid-price range. The area which had devices balancing performance and price which the Nexus range used to occuoy prior to the Nexus 6. There are at least a few exceptions (ie. the OnePlus One).

The problem is even more profound and chronic in the tablet industry where Apple iDevices have more features for your buck and are cheaper than their Android equivalents. Again, Android dominates on the lower price range but you hit a wall with features - nothing above 16GB, 1-2GB RAM and 1280x800 resolution unless its EOL. 32GB storage attracts a premium price beyond what you find with Windows and iOS devices. And unlike with phones, the cheaper Chinese brands can't compete with the more expensive tablets on performance. Utter madness!

Companies need to get their head out of the clouds.
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Old 31-08-2015, 08:20
de525ma
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And that is death of android right there Google should never have allowed these UI Skins they are absolutely awful I haven't seen one which works completely perfectly. I remember the S5 running a quad core and it was still laggy as hell because of poor optimisation and that is same across many android devices.

I'm not an Apple Fanboy I know sometimes it appears that I am but it's more actually down to fact I want an enjoyable mobile phone experience and iPhones deliver that at present the best of what I've seen.
You don't understand what Android is about. It isn't up to Google to order manufacturers around and dictate what they can and cannot add to the platform. That's the point. If manufacturers want to cripple sales by adding a crappy launcher, it's up to them. Nexus devices don't have the custom launchers anyway.

Where Android is about to really struggle is the lack of native support for IMS/VoLTE, due to the low level proprietary parts of the operating system. Relying on operators to make firmware for a few devices is possible, but operators lack the resources to make these available for all.

It's something that Google really need to address, as forcing consumers to buy their devices on overpriced contracts is bad for competition and the industry.
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Old 31-08-2015, 09:43
corf
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Apple for show, Android for a pro.
Except In reality it is the opposite. In almost all cases it is iOS that is used by business rather than android.

Clark shoes measured my childs feet with an iPad. Restaurants offer menus etc on an iPad.

I've never seen android used professionally - it always seems to be iOS.
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Old 31-08-2015, 10:15
swills
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Until IOS come up with phones that are sub £200 with an open architecture, android is here to stay.

Actually, the bigger potential threat to android is windows 10 phones, if it catches people's imagination.
I think Android is herev to stay, although needs to be cut back a bit maybe, IoS still too locked down for many, even the wife who is not techno minded does not like the restrctions surrounding Apple, I did have a Windows phone, and found that pretty good, at the time the lack of apps let it down , and I went back to Android, but the next phone may well be Windows based
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Old 31-08-2015, 10:22
jchamier
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I've never seen android used professionally - it always seems to be iOS.
The lack of security patches on android devices, even expensive Samsung's, is the problem for business use. Companies are used to security updates / patches for Windows, Linux, Mac and this gives them confidence their data is not at risk. Android lacks an ecosystem wide solution for patching the OS - which is where Google missed big. Apple has this, and I thought Windows Phone had this.

Companies have more to lose, should you have internal emails and documents about unannounced future products on your device, and something like Stagefright is used to get a copy of all the info on your device to the cloud overnight. Industrial espionage version 2 !

Yes I see companies abandoning Android for business use due to this worry, maybe their insurers will suggest it.
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Old 31-08-2015, 11:33
oilman
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The lack of security patches on android devices, even expensive Samsung's, is the problem for business use. Companies are used to security updates / patches for Windows, Linux, Mac and this gives them confidence their data is not at risk. Android lacks an ecosystem wide solution for patching the OS - which is where Google missed big. Apple has this, and I thought Windows Phone had this.

Companies have more to lose, should you have internal emails and documents about unannounced future products on your device, and something like Stagefright is used to get a copy of all the info on your device to the cloud overnight. Industrial espionage version 2 !

Yes I see companies abandoning Android for business use due to this worry, maybe their insurers will suggest it.
Some valid points here, but in the bigger picture the vast majority of people do not have company phones, so the corporate impact of going to IOS will only have a very small impact on the overall android level of sales.

Use the company car analogy - most company cars are fairly high end models, but not many people have them. Whether a company chooses a BMW or Lexus etc has virtually no impact on the Ford / Vauxhall sales etc.

So long as somebody can read emails, watch videos, use Facebook etc, that is all most people care about. So long as Android offers that at prices well below Apple prices, Apple will not make a significant dent in Android sales.

I think the new growing market could be new windows 10 phones now if price is right.
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Old 31-08-2015, 11:48
jchamier
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I think the new growing market could be new windows 10 phones now if price is right.
Yes, I think Windows 10 phones could fill a nice gap - the question is if Microsoft is up to it, and hasn't made redundant too many people!
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Old 31-08-2015, 12:22
tealady
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Clark shoes measured my childs feet with an iPad. Restaurants offer menus etc on an iPad.
Both seem a strange use of an ipad when other more robust, cheaper methods are available.

Colchester Castle uses Android tablets for visitors to help them with their visit and give them a 3D rendering of scenes.
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Old 31-08-2015, 12:29
Everything Goes
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Apple have improved their phones considerably in the last year, where as Samsung seem intent on copying flawed Apple designs. While most of the public wont care as aesthetics and branding are more important to the majority of people. Anyone who can see beyond that will look elsewhere. Android will continue on regardless.
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Old 31-08-2015, 12:33
grumpyoldbat
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Thanks for the tip. I'd actually forgotten about Blackberry, but will certainly investigate further.

One think I really detest about Android is the stupid naming of their updates. Do they think all their users are 5-year-old kids?
I bought a BlackBerry Classic to use for work as it's mostly email I use it for, but the ability to install Android apps has been a serious lifesaver. The BlackBerry hardware is really nice, the battery life is great, and the serious lack of native BB apps is tempered by having the Amazon App Store on board, so I can get all the work-related productivity apps I need.

I'd only ever had an old style BB before, and I hated it with a passion. The Classic has been a pleasant surprise, and you can pick one up brand new and SIM free for £260!
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Old 31-08-2015, 12:37
grumpyoldbat
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Yes, I think Windows 10 phones could fill a nice gap - the question is if Microsoft is up to it, and hasn't made redundant too many people!
IMO, Microsoft isn't up to it. It's not that they don't have the resources and clever people to come up with great phones and decent OS, but they still suffer from the same issue they've had for years in the mobile industry - it takes them far too long to develop something and by the time they've done it, the market has moved on again. They're constantly playing catch-up. What they need to do is get some people who can predict where the market is going and aim toward that rather than aiming toward what is happening now, and which will be old hat by the time they release it.
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Old 31-08-2015, 12:44
Gigabit
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Apple have improved their phones considerably in the last year, where as Samsung seem intent on copying flawed Apple designs. While most of the public wont care as aesthetics and branding are more important to the majority of people. Anyone who can see beyond that will look elsewhere. Android will continue on regardless.
iOS 8 is full of bugs...
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Old 31-08-2015, 12:54
Richard1960
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iOS 8 is full of bugs...
It works okay on my i phone perhaps i have just not come across them yet.
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Old 31-08-2015, 13:34
oilman
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IMO, Microsoft isn't up to it. It's not that they don't have the resources and clever people to come up with great phones and decent OS, but they still suffer from the same issue they've had for years in the mobile industry - it takes them far too long to develop something and by the time they've done it, the market has moved on again. They're constantly playing catch-up. What they need to do is get some people who can predict where the market is going and aim toward that rather than aiming toward what is happening now, and which will be old hat by the time they release it.
I have an expensive Android tablet, and a cheap windows 10 tablet (fifth of the price) I never use the android apart from occasional netflix use as screen is bigger.

There is no comparison in functionality. Windows multi tasks properly is a big plus.

On phones, this is not so clear cut of course.

This thread started with the assertion Android is in (gradual) decline in the developed countries and Apple will benefit. I think a significant percentage of Windows 10 PC users (an awful lot of people) might be tempted to use a Windows 10 phone as it will be instantly familiar - it will come down to price.
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Old 31-08-2015, 14:02
Thine Wonk
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I think one of the main issues is that whilst Android is designed to be customisable, it seems that the device maker layer is far too fat. It isn't just a skin, it is so heavy that you can't even patch the device without a whole new build.

Perhaps a 3 layer model is needed, kernel, core and then an overlay layer, which means that Google look after the Kernel and core, and that knowledgeable users can custom mod, but that carriers and brands can only customise the overlay layer, and that they take ownership of updating that part.

The phone makers wouldn't like that because they would have less to compete against the competition with, Samsung loved putting in all those gimmick features (which hardly anyone used), but as long as the APIs are available then any app, skin or software could provide those features.
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Old 31-08-2015, 14:36
Stiggles
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I think one of the main issues is that whilst Android is designed to be customisable, it seems that the device maker layer is far too fat. It isn't just a skin, it is so heavy that you can't even patch the device without a whole new build.
Uhm it is done that way. I just received a patch that updated security in my z2 and it wasn't a whole new build...

It was about 30mb

Perhaps a 3 layer model is needed, kernel, core and then an overlay layer, which means that Google look after the Kernel and core, and that knowledgeable users can custom mod, but that carriers and brands can only customise the overlay layer, and that they take ownership of updating that part.

The phone makers wouldn't like that because they would have less to compete against the competition with, Samsung loved putting in all those gimmick features (which hardly anyone used), but as long as the APIs are available then any app, skin or software could provide those features.
What, make it overly complicated for no reason?
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Old 31-08-2015, 14:55
Thine Wonk
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Uhm it is done that way. I just received a patch that updated security in my z2 and it wasn't a whole new build...

It was about 30mb



What, make it overly complicated for no reason?
You are aware that under the current system the device manufacturer pushes the updates, not google and that they have to take the latest code from google, then put all their custom stuff on top, then test and build and then deploy that out themselves and that only some vendors push out updates, some are incredibly slow and most abandon devices even though many users often continue using them beyond the abandon time of 18month / 2 years.

Are you fully patched then on the Z2 and free of security vulnerabilities?

https://play.google.com/store/apps/d...detector&hl=en
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Old 31-08-2015, 15:11
oilman
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You are aware that under the current system the device manufacturer pushes the updates, not google and that they have to take the latest code from google, then put all their custom stuff on top, then test and build and then deploy that out themselves and that only some vendors push out updates, some are incredibly slow and most abandon devices even though many users often continue using them beyond the abandon time of 18month / 2 years.

Are you fully patched then on the Z2 and free of security vulnerabilities?

https://play.google.com/store/apps/d...detector&hl=en
That will be a plus for windows 10 phones of course. Also, you can delete bloatware on windows systems (mostly).

Of course but then we will get opposite view ie people wanting to stop updates.
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Old 31-08-2015, 17:31
TelevisionUser
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Samsung killed Android and sale by 'specs' to become less relevant?

I wouldn't go that far! By virtue of their own designs, pricing and marketing, Samsung might end up with a reduced smartphone market share and profits but all that will happen is that other Android phone manufacturers will benefit from Samsung's woes. I don't expect that the Android operating system itself will suffer overall.
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Old 31-08-2015, 17:34
oilman
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Samsung killed Android and sale by 'specs' to become less relevant?

I wouldn't go that far! By virtue of their own designs, pricing and marketing, Samsung might end up with a reduced smartphone market share and profits but all that will happen is that other Android phone manufacturers will benefit from Samsung's woes. I don't expect that the Android operating system itself will suffer overall.
Spot on - the basic argument being used is like saying Ford cars have problems so Lexus will benefit. It will be Vauxhall, Peugot etc that benefit.
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Old 31-08-2015, 17:35
Thine Wonk
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Samsung killed Android and sale by 'specs' to become less relevant?

I wouldn't go that far! By virtue of their own designs, pricing and marketing, Samsung might end up with a reduced smartphone market share and profits but all that will happen is that other Android phone manufacturers will benefit from Samsung's woes. I don't expect that the Android operating system itself will suffer overall.
The problem is that people think Samsung's OS is Android (well, it is, but you know what I mean). When Samsung users decide not to buy again a lot of them are going to Apple, hence iPhones record breaking quarter every time they grow more and more and by huge amounts, no other manufacturer of Android phones seems to be picking up big growth as a result of Samsung's sales decline. Samsung's loss seem to be Apple's gain from what I can tell.
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Old 31-08-2015, 17:35
jchamier
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iOS 8 is full of bugs...
Of course, like all software. One of the most complicated things human beings have invented is software. If you find security ones I'd report them (security@apple.com) and then everyone can be patched in due course. Even 5 year old phones such as the iPhone 4S is still getting patches (iOS 8.4.1) and will get the iOS 9 release.

My Moto G 4G 1st edition has only had one update from KitKat 4.4.4 to Lollipop 5.1 and no sign of anything else, vulnerable to Stagefright and probably a lot more :-/
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Old 31-08-2015, 17:52
TelevisionUser
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Until IOS come up with phones that are sub £200 with an open architecture, android is here to stay.

Actually, the bigger potential threat to android is windows 10 phones, if it catches people's imagination.
For mobile devices' market share (April, 2015 to June, 2015 from netmarketshare.com), Android has 51.74%, iOS is on 39.49% and Windows Phone is in fourth place on 2.26% so there is room for growth there given the generally positive view of Windows 10. That said, it will take some time for new Windows 10 mobile devices to feed through into the figures.
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Old 31-08-2015, 19:19
Thine Wonk
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For mobile devices' market share (April, 2015 to June, 2015 from netmarketshare.com), Android has 51.74%, iOS is on 39.49% and Windows Phone is in fourth place on 2.26% so there is room for growth there given the generally positive view of Windows 10. That said, it will take some time for new Windows 10 mobile devices to feed through into the figures.
The problem is that Microsoft's CEO has said it was a mistake for the company to have acquired Nokia, has fired 7,800 people from the phone hardware side, shut down the Finland product development unit, sacked Stephen Elop and said that the future is in software. Back to basics is the message... Microsoft

They are only going to continue to produce mainly reference hardware I think.
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