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Mirror reporting Jenna has Quit
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adams66
17-09-2015
Originally Posted by nebogipfel:
“I like the actor but I'm not overly fond of the dialogue she's given or the way she's asked to play it. An example: Dark Water: The phone call she makes to Danny during which he dies crossing the road. Not one bit of that sounded like a real conversation. I know what Moffat was going for, but it just felt too, I don't know - sitcomesque TV-quirky. It undercut what it was all leading up to.”

For me that's one of the biggest problems I have with Moffat's writing - only very rarely does it sound like something real people would say. There's far too much of the snarky one-liners, or supposedly witty rejoinders - this is Moffat's background in writing comedy coming through. But rarely does his writing make a genuine emotional connection with me and I find that the constant snappy dialogue gets a little wearing.

In the example above we have two supposedly ordinary modern day humans chatting on the phone. And yet it all sounds completely wrong.
Mulett
17-09-2015
Originally Posted by adams66:
“For me that's one of the biggest problems I have with Moffat's writing - only very rarely does it sound like something real people would say. There's far too much of the snarky one-liners, or supposedly witty rejoinders - this is Moffat's background in writing comedy coming through. But rarely does his writing make a genuine emotional connection with me and I find that the constant snappy dialogue gets a little wearing.

In the example above we have two supposedly ordinary modern day humans chatting on the phone. And yet it all sounds completely wrong.”

My husband doesn't really watch Doctor Who but does occasionally join me on the sofa for an episode. He watched a couple during season 8 last year, and made this exact same point. He said it didn't feel like the Doctor and Clara ever actually had a conversation and it was all just soundbites.
Collins1965
17-09-2015
Originally Posted by adams66:
“For me that's one of the biggest problems I have with Moffat's writing - only very rarely does it sound like something real people would say. There's far too much of the snarky one-liners, or supposedly witty rejoinders - this is Moffat's background in writing comedy coming through. But rarely does his writing make a genuine emotional connection with me and I find that the constant snappy dialogue gets a little wearing.

In the example above we have two supposedly ordinary modern day humans chatting on the phone. And yet it all sounds completely wrong.”

For me this has been the big issue during Moffat's reign - no emotional connection. It started with Amy not giving a toss about losing her baby (no wish to restart this tired old argument again but really what young mother with access to a time machine would just accept that her baby was gone and accept a middle aged woman as a substitute for her lost child) and went downhill from there. The coldness and aloofness of the Doctor in the last series did not help either. I know a lot of people loved it but it did nothing for me. I am hoping for a warmer, friendlier Doctor this series but have my doubts.
Whoswho1
17-09-2015
Originally Posted by Collins1965:
“F I am hoping for a warmer, friendlier Doctor this series but have my doubts.”

Have we not already not had 3 of those in nuwho previous to PC?

Besides PC /Moffat said the 12 will be mellowing in series 9...which was the plan all along.
GDK
17-09-2015
I agree that is the weakness in Moffat's reign, and the specifics you mention and in particular most of Series 8. I'd also add the out-of-character behaviour at times of both Clara and the Doctor didn't help me with series 8. However, my estimation of much of series 8 overall improved on re-watch.

That said, I feel it's not a particularly strong criticism to say the dialogue is too sitcom-esque, as in real life people can be witty too. Who wants dull conversation in their entertainment?

But none of the faults I too perceive turn me into a Moffat hater. There's still much to be enjoyed in even the worst episode of Doctor Who.

I felt the Christmas episode last year did a lot to bring the Doctor's warmth out of the shadows (and, incidentally, his reaction to Clara's virtual attempt to force him to go after dead Danny in Dark Water). I'm hoping series 9 will be more like that, emotionally, than the rest of series 8 was.
Collins1965
17-09-2015
Originally Posted by Whoswho1:
“Have we not already not had 3 of those in nuwho previous to PC?

Besides PC /Moffat said the 12 will be mellowing in series 9...which was the plan all along.”

Yes we did and personally I much preferred them. I know that change is as good as a rest but I found that the characterisation went too far in the opposite direction.

And I am looking forward to the mellowing in series 9.
Collins1965
17-09-2015
Originally Posted by GDK:
“I agree that is the weakness in Moffat's reign, and the specifics you mention and in particular most of Series 8. I'd also add the out-of-character behaviour at times of both Clara and the Doctor didn't help me with series 8. However, my estimation of much of series 8 overall improved on re-watch.

That said, I feel it's not a particularly strong criticism to say the dialogue is too sitcom-esque, as in real life people can be witty too. Who wants dull conversation in their entertainment?

But none of the faults I too perceive turn me into a Moffat hater. There's still much to be enjoyed in even the worst episode of Doctor Who.

I felt the Christmas episode last year did a lot to bring the Doctor's warmth out of the shadows (and, incidentally, his reaction to Clara's virtual attempt to force him to go after dead Danny in Dark Water). I'm hoping series 9 will be more like that, emotionally, than the rest of series 8 was.”

I agree. Not every decision is going to appeal to us and any Who is better than no Who

The previews look good and I am hoping for the best
Abomination
17-09-2015
For the sake of discussion, rather than argument I would have to agree that for the most part Moffat's writing - at least to an emotional capacity - usually leaves me cold. Series 5 was the first time I struggled to care about the companions at all - and it's a shame because Karen Gillan and Arthur Darvill really gave it their all, and I really wish some of their experiences resonated with me and actually made me care (probably not helped by the utterly diminished concept of death in that series).

Series 6 was a minor improvement if only for Gillan and Alex Kingston's superb acting - as others have highlighted, Amy responded so unnaturally to the loss of her child...I'm a cold, heartless wretch of a human being and even I could see it. Series 7 just proved that the Ponds needed to stay away from having a family. Amy's infertility was so poorly worked in as a storyline in Asylum of the Daleks - apparently it's why she kicked Rory out, because she couldn't give him kids. As if that's something anyone would actually talk about before filing for divorce and kicking their partner out?! Never mind, we'll chuck it in needlessly, and it'll all be swept over by the next episode never having ever added anything to proceedings. By this point we also had everyone the Ponds knew conveniently coming into their lives when the plot called for it...

You need to find a person called Melody? Well conveniently we have a best friend called Mels who you've never seen before and we've not even mentioned, and she's now going to play a pivotal role in a story for all of fifteen minutes to deliver a shock twist.

You need a family figure back home to flesh out the Ponds story all of a sudden because we need to do a story with them back home? Well sure, we basically abandoned the families we set up in Series 5 and actually never saw again - we'll recast the Dad as Mr. Weasley because stunt-casting is cool, and chuck him in for two episodes to show that Amy and Rory do have relatives. Sure it's a bit late in the day for a bit of family emotional resonance, and sure maybe it'd have helped if we'd actually fleshed out or even mentioned these characters before - but don't worry, we're basically going to introduce him, essentially kill off the Ponds one story later and then not even reference him again and just leave him hanging. Oh the fans will cry out about that? We'll just storyboard what we'd have liked to have done had we given any thought to how the character arc needs to pan out satisfyingly.

Oh you need to reveal the Doctor's biggest secret for the 50th Anniversary story? Sure...chuck in a war-torn incarnation of the Doctor we've never seen before! I mean The Doctor has been upfront about his involvement in the Time War with each and every face he's had since. And everyone who knows of him knows he can regenerate. But of course, because we need to stunt-cast again, we'll pretend it's logical that The Doctor's darkest secret is that he had an incarnation that fought in the Time War - which nobody knew before!!! Oh look, John Hurt!!!

Now in Moffat's defence I personally think he got better with Series 8 - he allowed for a bit more time in some of his scenes, and those problematic ones where character emotion were meant to matter a bit more were often a bit less jarring than they once were. It's why I think I like Clara so much now...he afforded her the time to be a bit less snappy, a bit less pun-fuelled. We got scenes like the one where Eleven reappeared briefly in Deep Breath, we got the great argument between The Doctor and Clara at the end of Kill the Moon. We got a nice heart-to-heart on the beach between Clara and the Doctor at the end of Mummy on the Orient Express. We got the intense volcano scene at the start of Dark Water. We got their utterly disatisfying lie-filled exit in Death in Heaven that made me realise they were actually evoking a response from me emotionally again, and that I actually cared about whether the two of them got some proper closure! Of course whether these arguments, rifts and attitudes are the sort of thing you want in Doctor Who are a matter of opinion and everyone has a different one - for many I understand that this is why they don't like Clara, because she's demanding and overly controlling. For me though it's what the show, and the characters needed. We reach Last Christmas, and even the Danny scenes (despite really not liking him!) were bearable because they bothered to take time with the dialogue and made it count. We had the fake departure for old-Clara at the end and I realise I don't want her to go...I realised how much I liked her. They then reverse it, and she's young again and for the first time in years I've actually cared about the longevity of the character...I want her around! It was such a satisfying conclusion for me.

Moffat is hugely unpredictable when it comes to writing emotionally, and I feel much of his content is dependent on the quality of the actors as he is fairly inconsistent - some episodes contain the best dialogue he's written but the poorest grasp of emotion I've seen in the show (Death in Heaven - the "love isn't an emotion" rubbish, whilst there were otherwise genuinely well written character moments in the story). With Clara he levelled the playing field a bit after so many increasingly poor years of character writing, and I'm hoping Series 9 builds upon what Series 8 offered...hopefully something a bit more positive so that the character can go out on a high. She may yet be the thing that makes me feel that Moffat was (eventually) as capable as RTD of winning me over with the show.
dave_windows
17-09-2015
Originally Posted by Shawn_Lunn:
“Clara will have been in more episodes than Rose and Amy.

Her leaving in Hell Bent seems like a good jumping off point.”

She should have left last year and a new companion this year.
Whoswho1
17-09-2015
Originally Posted by dave_windows:
“She should have left last year and a new companion this year.”

I agree ,,the old age thing/or Danny would have been a great out for her, Now, Clara is probably gonna have to die.
billykubrick
17-09-2015
Originally Posted by nebogipfel:
“I'm glad Jenna did decide to stay on for series 9. I thought she was given a good exit in the Christmas special and groaned when it was undone again. But, that aside it's probably going to be a good thing. Clara was given a terrible introductory series and didn't register with me at all as a quality character. (There was stuff about Amy's first year that was pretty wrong but the strengths outweighed it for me). Then in series 8 Moffat completely rebooted the character and to my mind we had Clara's Introductory Series Mark II. Now I'll be happy to see Clara and the Doctor in full flight - with her actually travelling in the Tardis as a proper old fashioned companion.

I like the actor but I'm not overly fond of the dialogue she's given or the way she's asked to play it. An example: Dark Water: The phone call she makes to Danny during which he dies crossing the road. Not one bit of that sounded like a real conversation. I know what Moffat was going for, but it just felt too, I don't know - sitcomesque TV-quirky. It undercut what it was all leading up to.

I'm also not a fan of Moffat injecting Clara into the entire biography of the Doctor, so I don't want any more of that thank you. I'm half expecting to find out magical souffle impossible girl was the Doctor's favourite aunt all along and personally guided the Tardis to a junk yard in Totters Lane.

But other than that - I hope she goes out on a high having had a series of travelling in the Tardis and being a full on hero companion.”

Being a bit perverse, but I thought she was given a rather sad ending and cheered up at its undoing. I understand that Doctor Who has an underlying melancholic theme (the mortality of humans, the relative immortality of The Doctor), but, although the narrative was subsequently slightly sweetened, the loss to him of Rose, Donna, Amy and the Housemistress (?) in the public school story are all, collectively, a bit depressing. But well done, I would concede. Anyway I look forward to Jenna with The Doctor without Danny Pink around.
AdzPower
17-09-2015
I think Jenna should have left at the end of series 7, when she jumped through that portal to save the doctor and split herself into a million clones. That should have been the end.
nebogipfel
18-09-2015
Originally Posted by billykubrick:
“Being a bit perverse, but I thought she was given a rather sad ending and cheered up at its undoing. I understand that Doctor Who has an underlying melancholic theme (the mortality of humans, the relative immortality of The Doctor), but, although the narrative was subsequently slightly sweetened, the loss to him of Rose, Donna, Amy and the Housemistress (?) in the public school story are all, collectively, a bit depressing. But well done, I would concede. Anyway I look forward to Jenna with The Doctor without Danny Pink around.”

Good point. Maybe one day a companion will just decide to say goodbye and get on with a life away from the Tardis - and without the melancholia that went with Martha's (the public school housemistress) exit. It was (with notable exceptions) the norm in Classic Who. Unfortunately for you I suspect Clara's exit won't be along those lines.

Having said that I don't mind a bit of tear jerking. One of the saddest things I've seen in the whole of Doctor Who was Zoe Heriot failing to remember ever meeting the Doctor. I'd do anything for Zoe to have all those memories back again. But a bit of unfixable sadness is more true to life than constant breezy farewells.
mossy2103
18-09-2015
Big spoiler on The Mirror website today, so I presume that it's in the print edition too.


DON'T CLICK UNLESS YOU WANT TO SEE THE SPOILER

http://www.mirror.co.uk/tv/tv-news/d...dekick-6465029
donovan5
18-09-2015
Originally Posted by Abomination:
“For the sake of discussion, rather than argument I would have to agree that for the most part Moffat's writing”

Ha I'm not going to quote it all but great post Abomination. When I saw the length of it I thought god another long Moff whinge do I really need to read through all that,but glad I did as I found myself agreeing with the lot.
I'm still a fan but the "lets throw in a character" just for the sake of it does get on my nerves with his writing
billykubrick
18-09-2015
Originally Posted by nebogipfel:
“Good point. Maybe one day a companion will just decide to say goodbye and get on with a life away from the Tardis - and without the melancholia that went with Martha's (the public school housemistress) exit. It was (with notable exceptions) the norm in Classic Who. Unfortunately for you I suspect Clara's exit won't be along those lines.

Having said that I don't mind a bit of tear jerking. One of the saddest things I've seen in the whole of Doctor Who was Zoe Heriot failing to remember ever meeting the Doctor. I'd do anything for Zoe to have all those memories back again. But a bit of unfixable sadness is more true to life than constant breezy farewells.”

Yes, Clara will probably have a poignant end, and one can't deny it makes better drama.
laurielou
18-09-2015
Originally Posted by donovan5:
“Ha I'm not going to quote it all but great post Abomination. When I saw the length of it I thought god another long Moff whinge do I really need to read through all that,but glad I did as I found myself agreeing with the lot.
I'm still a fan but the "lets throw in a character" just for the sake of it does get on my nerves with his writing”

Couldn't agree more.

Abomination - that was fantastic. I'm not such a Clara fan - in fact I'm delighted she's going at last - but all in all, you echoed my thoughts exactly.
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