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Old 10-04-2016, 15:12
GDK
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The notion that Carl was a budding psychopath or serial killer came from Hershel, and later from Negan (with posters agreeing with it, #2766). I didn't mean to imply it came from you, but it wasn't something I made up as a straw man.

Rick trusted Hershel's account, and Hershel was wrong. And denying Carl guns does not seem like a way to deal with a mistake. It seems either a punishment, or a feeling that Carl couldn't be trusted with guns.

I don't much care what the writers intended. I judge it on what we saw on-screen.
Fair enough. I don't know what the writers have in store for Carl.

Did Hershel say he thought Carl was a budding psychopath? As I recall, he told Rick what had happened and said Rick should be concerned. Happy to be corrected if I'm wrong about that.

If Hershel had actually said Carl was a budding psychopath, then Rick's response was inadequate. If Hershel was only concerned about Carl's behaviour then Rick's response was reasonable - Carl couldn't be trusted with guns, so he took them away from him for a time. Later, when Rick judged Carl could be trusted again and needed to be able to defend himself fully again, he let Carl have guns again.

My point about the writers' intent is valid because what we were shown is what they intended and you, to my way of thinking, seem to be misreading what happened.
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Old 10-04-2016, 15:41
Alrightmate
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I really want rid of Glenn and may be making too much of it but I mentioned before about Maggie cutting her hair prior to getting sick. This is always symbolic of someone losing their strength so they may have been telegraphing the fact that Glenn, as her strength, will die?
I don't think it's Rick and due to the fact that the victim appeared to try and get back up - Daryl looked too badly injured and Maggie too sick, so I'm ruling them out.

Of course, the writers can always just do whatever they want and find a justification for it...........
Yes, I was just looking back for that post because I wanted to address it, but I suppose this one will do as it appears to be you who wrote it if you're referring to it.

What I wanted to mention, was that after us mulling over symbolism and whatnot, was who to do with who cut her hair (or helped her cut her hair), and what Maggie said.
It was Enid who cut her hair, which could be symbolic in itself.
Of course you're aware of the story of Samson and Delilah and how Delilah betrayed Samson by cutting his hair. Well doesn't this feed into the theory about Enid betryaing the group and playing the part of Delilah?
In fact couldn't it be indicative that Enid has betrayed Maggie directly?
Because right through this series a significant development had been devoted to the relationship between Maggie and Enid.
And as we said before, writers usually write things like this for a purpose.

In fact the characters Enid has been the most closely involved with in the group have been Maggie and Glenn.
Remember the part where Enid was desperately trying to get away from Glenn after he came across her after his miraculous escape from a horde of zombies. Why was Enid so desperate to get away? Glenn had to literally recapture her. It looked like she wasn't going to go back to Alexandria at all until Glenn convinced her to come back with him. I wonder if that will turn out to be a catastrophic decision by Glenn?

The more I think about this the more I think that Maggie is as at much risk of being the one killed by Negan as Glenn is.
Don't forget that Enid cut Maggie's hair not Glenn's. If we are playing around with the possible symbolism going on here couldn't that mean that Maggie is directly at risk?
There is something else though, there was an interesting piece of dialogue between Maggie and Enid just after she cut her hair and looks into the hand mirror......
Enid: "I like it, but why?"
Maggie: (Thoughtful long pause) "I have to keep going,....and I don't want anything getting in my way".
Which I find to be a curious little piece of dialogue. Is she just talking about her hair? Probably. But could it also mean that for her to develop Glenn is holding her back?
She obviously doesn't mean that, but do the writers?
It depends on what you read into that. It could be a positive sign for Maggie, but not so great for Glenn's chances.

Also, one other little bit that I haven't seen anybody mention and they may not have noticed. Remember when Glenn and Nicholas were stuck on top of the skip and Nicholas blew his brains out?
Look at which side of his head Nicholas fired his gun (his right) and look at the splatter of blood which hits Glenn square on on the right side of his face. That looked odd. It didn't look like that could have physically happened and it hit Glenn square on from his right hand side.
Probably means nothing, but look at it again.
We were talking about Glenn seeing those pictures of people with their heads bashed in as an omen, but then also think of the unrealistic way that Glen's head was splashed with blood. Could that be an omen as well?

Of course everything I say here will probably turn out to be bullshit, but that's part of the fun.
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Old 10-04-2016, 15:53
Corwin
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No, what I meant was that The Wolves might not have existed before, and that The Wolves were simply those people who Alexandria kicked out and they hate Alexandria and the people in it.
A bit like Alexandria being the model society on the surface, and The Wolves being the 'undesirables' who they swept under the carpet to keep hidden from view and who they didn't want to think about. Like a dark reflection of society in real life.
Pretty sure it was only two or three people who were kicked out of Alexandria so while they may have joined the Wolves they were not the whole of them.

Plus there's evidence of the Wolves existing a hundred plus miles away from Alexandria.

So it seems more likely to me that the Wolves started elsewhere and moved towards Washington/Alexandria like Rick's group than they started at Alexandria, expanded away from there only to then turn around and attack it.




Actually that's the most logical explanation I've seen and makes perfect sense.
Why didn't anyone think of the eeny meeny miney mo thing before?
Obviously when you do the eeny meeny miney mo thing you do it in sequential order. You don't go backwards and forwards and all over the place. You got from left to right, not at random.

Everyone are looking for clues, when in reality sometimes the simplest explanation is the most logical.


Not looked at the video but from what I recall of the episode the editing would make it pretty hard to work out.

There's one point during the Eeney meeney I think where Negan says three or four words while the Camera (and possibly Lucille) are pointing at one character. So are we to assume that even though we (and presumably Negan) were only looking at one person that each word is still associated with a different character?
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Old 10-04-2016, 16:32
margarite6666
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Pretty sure it was only two or three people who were kicked out of Alexandria so while they may have joined the Wolves they were not the whole of them.

Plus there's evidence of the Wolves existing a hundred plus miles away from Alexandria.

So it seems more likely to me that the Wolves started elsewhere and moved towards Washington/Alexandria like Rick's group than they started at Alexandria, expanded away from there only to then turn around and attack it.








Not looked at the video but from what I recall of the episode the editing would make it pretty hard to work out.

There's one point during the Eeney meeney I think where Negan says three or four words while the Camera (and possibly Lucille) are pointing at one character. So are we to assume that even though we (and presumably Negan) were only looking at one person that each word is still associated with a different character?
I watched the Talking Dead and the host mentioned people would try and look at position and angles; Jeffrey jumped in and said they knew people would do that. He said it took 15 hours to film this so they must have done alot to change the position of shots. That showrunners has also said they haven't started filming the scene we will see of Megan killing whoever it is. However I read Began doesn't kill women in the comics. I think noneee of the women killed his men while they slept. Plus a strong man killing a woman that way just won't sit right. I also think thghere were no women in those photos.

He said there have been clues. I definitely think Glenn being the one to see those awful photos on.the. wallis a clue. With Glenn and Maggie it's getting to be like the 'Cathy Cathy' Heathcliffe. Heathcliffe' all the time with both in hysterics.
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Old 10-04-2016, 17:31
big brother 9
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I watched the Talking Dead and the host mentioned people would try and look at position and angles; Jeffrey jumped in and said they knew people would do that. He said it took 15 hours to film this so they must have done alot to change the position of shots. That showrunners has also said they haven't started filming the scene we will see of Megan killing whoever it is. However I read Began doesn't kill women in the comics. I think noneee of the women killed his men while they slept. Plus a strong man killing a woman that way just won't sit right. I also think thghere were no women in those photos.

He said there have been clues. I definitely think Glenn being the one to see those awful photos on.the. wallis a clue. With Glenn and Maggie it's getting to be like the 'Cathy Cathy' Heathcliffe. Heathcliffe' all the time with both in hysterics.

By a million miles this post is very difficult to understand.

I think I get from it that they haven't filmed the killing scene yet.......that could mean they haven't decided who negan kills yet ( was so tempted to call him kegan)
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Old 10-04-2016, 19:28
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Isn't the whole "Enid is in on it" thing a little circumstantial?

How would the Saviours know that Maggie was ill? How would they know when? How did they or Enid know that Rick and his core group would hit the road in the RV?

After all Rick could've just sent one or two people out in a car to bring Hilltops Doctor back to Alexandria.

We haven't seen Enid leave Alexandria since her return with Glen, so how has she been communicating with the Saviours.

My verdict is Enid is not in on it and the Saviours ambushing the RV like they did was by watching Alexandria and had already prepared road blocks to stop ANY and ALL Alexandria traffic coming in or out of the area.

I wonder is Tara and Heath have run into any trouble? I wonder if the Wolves ever crossed paths with the Saviours?
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Old 10-04-2016, 19:42
Stansfield
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Who were the two guys, one on horseback, wearing body armour, who came to the aid of Morgan and Carol?
They were the most interesting part, to this over long final episode, to the most boring season of TWD.....Jason from The Good Wife, was the Bogeyman, really! - and I don't care who got the Baseball Bat..... but all of them, if possible, would be fine by me.
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Old 10-04-2016, 20:13
MissMonkeyMoo
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I watched the Talking Dead and the host mentioned people would try and look at position and angles; Jeffrey jumped in and said they knew people would do that. He said it took 15 hours to film this so they must have done alot to change the position of shots. That showrunners has also said they haven't started filming the scene we will see of Megan killing whoever it is. However I read Began doesn't kill women in the comics. I think noneee of the women killed his men while they slept. Plus a strong man killing a woman that way just won't sit right. I also think thghere were no women in those photos.

He said there have been clues. I definitely think Glenn being the one to see those awful photos on.the. wallis a clue. With Glenn and Maggie it's getting to be like the 'Cathy Cathy' Heathcliffe. Heathcliffe' all the time with both in hysterics.
I don't buy that they haven't yet decided who is going to die. The show comes back on screen in 6 months which must mean filming is going to start again really soon in order to be able to shoot it and edit it. Scripts have to be written edited proof read etc and that will all have been done by now. Besides which they would have already had an idea of where the story is going and spittle have put some of that into series 6.

There's a lot of speculation on you tube but this videohttps://youtu.be/vSSjwqYWjrs
Seems convincing when he talks about the person getting the first blow to the head and the camera shot drops to the floor. There are only trees behind Negan and no rv which would suggest that it is Glenn that gets it. if its not and it's someone in the middle, it's poor continuity and a big error which I can't believe the show would be so lax on and the fans would have a field day.
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Old 10-04-2016, 20:54
Matt35
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I think it could be Abraham who got killed. I hope its not though.
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Old 10-04-2016, 21:22
IamParadox
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Re-watching previous episodes then some characters have been signposted.

Abraham finding happiness and wanting to settle with Sasha. Eugene has had hero moments in the latter of half of the season and Glenn has survived multiple times.

The episode where they were heading back and looking at Maggie's baby pictures makes me thinking it's one of those.
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Old 10-04-2016, 21:53
Matt35
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One thing I've wondered what would happen if maggie's baby died while its inside her? Would it become a walker and munch on her from inside?
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Old 10-04-2016, 22:15
daisyduck1976
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Not looked at the video but from what I recall of the episode the editing would make it pretty hard to work out.

There's one point during the Eeney meeney I think where Negan says three or four words while the Camera (and possibly Lucille) are pointing at one character. So are we to assume that even though we (and presumably Negan) were only looking at one person that each word is still associated with a different character?
Okay- bit embarrassed that I have gone to the lengths of doing this (esp as I think they are just messing with us and know we will try to work it out) but I have watched the whole scene again and here's how it goes:

Order of the line from left to right:

Glenn, Rosita, Daryl, Michonne, Abraham, Maggie, Rick, Sasha, Aaron, Carl, Eugene

Eenie- Rick
Meenie- Maggie
Miney- Abraham
Moh- Michonne
Catch a- (skips Daryl and goes to point at Rosita who is not shown on screen- I say it's her and not Glenn as it appears he's pointing right next to Daryl)
Tiger- back to Daryl
By his toe- (no-one shown on screen here and there's only three words here which would only take him as far back along the line as Maggie?)
If - Sasha (but only seems to move a step or two to get to her)
it hollers- Aaron
Let it Go- ( points but no-one shown on screen, then pauses)
My mother-(appears to point at the same person as the last words- still not shown on screen. I'd say this was obviously Carl but...)
Told me- (moves to the next person- it's Carl)
To pick- Lucille shown pointing at someone, no-one is shown on screen
The very best one Michonne is briefly shown looking to her right, Lucille points to Eugene on "one" followed by a shot of Sasha looking down but the bat not pointing at her.
And you points at Rosita followed quickly by pointing at Aaron, then Glenn
Are pointing at Maggie followed quickly by shots of the bat pointing at an unknown person, then Daryl, then Abraham, then Carl and finally a shot of Rick staring ahead but Lucille not pointing at him.
It Points Lucille at an unknown person

So from that I conclude- that they totally messed with us by jumbling up half the camera shots

The fella the DM referred to is saying that Negan did 11 points of the bat for the rhyme and that the order of the rhyme goes left first- Rick, Maggie, Abe, Michonne, Daryl, then back right to Sasha, Aaron, Glen, Eugene, then back left to Rosita and finally Glenn. He hasn't taken account of the fact that we see Negan point to someone on the left of Daryl (our left) before pointing at Daryl.

From what I can see, he does 20 points of the bat that we get to see. If he goes left and follows the order that we see him start then it would be:

1) Rick, 2) Maggie, 3) Abe, 4) MIchonne, 5) Daryl, 6) Rosita, 7) Glenn, 8) Eugene 9) Carl , 10) Aaron 11) Sasha 12) Rick 13) Maggie 14) Abe 15) Michonne 16) Daryl 17) Rosita 18) Glenn 19) Eugene 20) Carl

However some of the pointing is clear and you can also see he's not following a logical order all the time:

1) Rick
2) Maggie
3) Abe
4) Michonne
5)?
6) Daryl
7) ?
8) Sasha
9) Aaron
10) ?
11) ?
12) Carl
13) Rosita,
14)Aaron
15) Glenn
16) Maggie,
17) Daryl,
18) Abe
19)Carl
20) ?

From 12 onwards there's no guarantee that those points of the bat are in order, because you only see the bat and their face, you don't see him move. Also four of those facial shots could be the missing shots from points 5, 7, 10 and 11.

So all in all, I conclude that I have found out absolutely nothing and that the producers would laugh themselves silly if they could read this
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Old 10-04-2016, 22:21
daisyduck1976
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Re-watching previous episodes then some characters have been signposted.

Abraham finding happiness and wanting to settle with Sasha. Eugene has had hero moments in the latter of half of the season and Glenn has survived multiple times.

The episode where they were heading back and looking at Maggie's baby pictures makes me thinking it's one of those.
There's also a theory that because the Saviours mentioned Last Day on Earth (ep title) to Rick and the people in the Rv, that it's one of them so: Rick, Abe, Eugene, Carl, Aaron, Sasha or Maggie.
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Old 11-04-2016, 10:19
deans6571
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Okay- bit embarrassed that I have gone to the lengths of doing this (esp as I think they are just messing with us and know we will try to work it out) but I have watched the whole scene again and here's how it goes:

Order of the line from left to right:

Glenn, Rosita, Daryl, Michonne, Abraham, Maggie, Rick, Sasha, Aaron, Carl, Eugene

Eenie- Rick
Meenie- Maggie
Miney- Abraham
Moh- Michonne
Catch a- (skips Daryl and goes to point at Rosita who is not shown on screen- I say it's her and not Glenn as it appears he's pointing right next to Daryl)
Tiger- back to Daryl
By his toe- (no-one shown on screen here and there's only three words here which would only take him as far back along the line as Maggie?)
If - Sasha (but only seems to move a step or two to get to her)
it hollers- Aaron
Let it Go- ( points but no-one shown on screen, then pauses)
My mother-(appears to point at the same person as the last words- still not shown on screen. I'd say this was obviously Carl but...)
Told me- (moves to the next person- it's Carl)
To pick- Lucille shown pointing at someone, no-one is shown on screen
The very best one Michonne is briefly shown looking to her right, Lucille points to Eugene on "one" followed by a shot of Sasha looking down but the bat not pointing at her.
And you points at Rosita followed quickly by pointing at Aaron, then Glenn
Are pointing at Maggie followed quickly by shots of the bat pointing at an unknown person, then Daryl, then Abraham, then Carl and finally a shot of Rick staring ahead but Lucille not pointing at him.
It Points Lucille at an unknown person

So from that I conclude- that they totally messed with us by jumbling up half the camera shots

The fella the DM referred to is saying that Negan did 11 points of the bat for the rhyme and that the order of the rhyme goes left first- Rick, Maggie, Abe, Michonne, Daryl, then back right to Sasha, Aaron, Glen, Eugene, then back left to Rosita and finally Glenn. He hasn't taken account of the fact that we see Negan point to someone on the left of Daryl (our left) before pointing at Daryl.

From what I can see, he does 20 points of the bat that we get to see. If he goes left and follows the order that we see him start then it would be:

1) Rick, 2) Maggie, 3) Abe, 4) MIchonne, 5) Daryl, 6) Rosita, 7) Glenn, 8) Eugene 9) Carl , 10) Aaron 11) Sasha 12) Rick 13) Maggie 14) Abe 15) Michonne 16) Daryl 17) Rosita 18) Glenn 19) Eugene 20) Carl

However some of the pointing is clear and you can also see he's not following a logical order all the time:

1) Rick
2) Maggie
3) Abe
4) Michonne
5)?
6) Daryl
7) ?
8) Sasha
9) Aaron
10) ?
11) ?
12) Carl
13) Rosita,
14)Aaron
15) Glenn
16) Maggie,
17) Daryl,
18) Abe
19)Carl
20) ?

From 12 onwards there's no guarantee that those points of the bat are in order, because you only see the bat and their face, you don't see him move. Also four of those facial shots could be the missing shots from points 5, 7, 10 and 11.

So all in all, I conclude that I have found out absolutely nothing and that the producers would laugh themselves silly if they could read this
THIS^^^ is totally THE BEST post of the entire thread!!!

...and especially this part: "So all in all, I conclude that I have found out absolutely nothing and that the producers would laugh themselves silly if they could read this"

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Old 11-04-2016, 10:35
brangdon
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Isn't the whole "Enid is in on it" thing a little circumstantial?

How would the Saviours know that Maggie was ill? How would they know when? How did they or Enid know that Rick and his core group would hit the road in the RV?

After all Rick could've just sent one or two people out in a car to bring Hilltops Doctor back to Alexandria.
I think the idea is that Enid poisoned Maggie. That's how the Saviours knew she would be ill: it was a plan. Bringing the doctor from Hilltops would be unlikely as it would involve twice the journey time, the doctor might not want to leave patients he had in Hilltop, and he might need equipment and medical supplies that were in Hilltop.

We haven't seen Enid leave Alexandria since her return with Glen, so how has she been communicating with the Saviours.
That was two months ago. She seemed able to slip in and out of the compound at will, so she'd had plenty of time to communicate.

My verdict is Enid is not in on it and the Saviours ambushing the RV like they did was by watching Alexandria and had already prepared road blocks to stop ANY and ALL Alexandria traffic coming in or out of the area.
Despite what I wrote above, I agree with this. The evidence isn't terribly convincing. Enid has been at Alexandria for about a year. If she was a Saviour spy, then the Saviours would have known everything about Alexandria from the start. Negan would already know that Carl was Rick's son, for example. (He'd also know about Judith, which means he could safely kill Carl and still have a child to control Rick with.) It seemed pretty clear that Dwight didn't know, and neither did the motorcycle gang, or the people at the satellite station.

I wonder is Tara and Heath have run into any trouble? I wonder if the Wolves ever crossed paths with the Saviours?
I'm not interesting in speculating about who Negan killed, but I have been wondering about what happens next. Presumably Negan returns to Alexandria in force, with the intent of surveying what they have and taking anything of value, and especially their guns. I'm guessing they want Rick alive so they can make him order the Alexandrians to open the gate and let the Saviours in. If they kill him, maybe Maggie could give the order but it would be better with Rick. If they submit, then presumably Alexandria would be treated like Hilltop and the Library, and be allowed a degree of autonomy for a while so long as they produce. I'm not sure what Alexandria can produce, though. The food they have mostly came from Hilltop. Maybe Eugene's bullet-factory is something Rick could offer to trade.
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Old 11-04-2016, 14:54
Virtual Paul
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Order of the line from left to right:

Glenn, Rosita, Daryl, Michonne, Abraham, Maggie, Rick, Sasha, Aaron, Carl, Eugene

If you presume he started at Rick and moved left (Maggie next) and pointed at a different person for each word in the rhyme (I count 30 words) it's either:

Michonne if he moves back on himself at each end (so Glenn then back to Rosita, and Eugene then back to Carl)

Eugene if he moves to Eugene after Glenn so kept moving left.

So my earlier feeling it's Eugene is well supported, as Negan looks to be making several steps when he approached the final one and says "it", so walking back to Eugene after Glenn.
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Old 11-04-2016, 16:18
Moleskin
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I know who they are and that they are in the comic but this is meant to be (though the number of people opening posting spoilers from the comic seems to be increasing) a thread about the TV show which is why my speculation is based on just what has been said/shown on said TV show.
You can't speculate if you already know!
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Old 11-04-2016, 17:02
Schmiznurf
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You can't speculate if you already know!
Not everyone wants to know everything from the comics, a lot of people are happy finding out when it is shown in the show and speculation in the mean time. The way you are talking makes it sound like you think you're above others because you already know.
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Old 11-04-2016, 18:11
IamParadox
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Not everyone wants to know everything from the comics, a lot of people are happy finding out when it is shown in the show and speculation in the mean time. The way you are talking makes it sound like you think you're above others because you already know.
The writers have stated they will deviate from the comics. If they don't then it will easy to predict who Negan killed.

The Andrea/Governor story didn't happen in the comics.
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Old 11-04-2016, 18:15
julia_McGill
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looking forward!
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Old 11-04-2016, 18:18
daisyduck1976
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THIS^^^ is totally THE BEST post of the entire thread!!!

...and especially this part: "So all in all, I conclude that I have found out absolutely nothing and that the producers would laugh themselves silly if they could read this"

Ha ha! Glad to have entertained. Started out actually trying to see if I could work it out, and quickly realised I was on a hiding to nothing Was fun though!
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Old 11-04-2016, 18:21
daisyduck1976
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If you presume he started at Rick and moved left (Maggie next) and pointed at a different person for each word in the rhyme (I count 30 words) it's either:

Michonne if he moves back on himself at each end (so Glenn then back to Rosita, and Eugene then back to Carl)

Eugene if he moves to Eugene after Glenn so kept moving left.

So my earlier feeling it's Eugene is well supported, as Negan looks to be making several steps when he approached the final one and says "it", so walking back to Eugene after Glenn.
At this point, I think if I was standing next to Negan when he actually whacked the person, I still wouldn't know who it was!
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Old 12-04-2016, 00:35
Supratad
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There is an elephant in the room though.
Negan being such a nasty, nasty character I fully expected the eeny, meeny rhyme to be the racist one, but nicely sidestepped by referring to Daryl as a tiger.
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Old 12-04-2016, 01:02
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I'm not sure what's worse, people going all Columbo trying to figure out who got killed even though they haven't filmed it yet and probably haven't decided themselves, or people going on about Enid is a spy again (after she was supposed to be a spy for the Wolves). It's almost like this show is doing a great big load of nothing in particular.
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Old 12-04-2016, 01:11
Mandark
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It's got to be the most useless male character and that is Eugene. Negan would have seen that Eugene was expendable to the group as he drove the RV (and is a bit of a weirdo) so he'll probably reason that the group could live with his loss without as much resentment as if one of the others was killed. May be..,
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