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Did Lawrence Whites "gay cure" past really happen to homosexuals? |
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#101 |
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Really - all I've seen is, he's afraid of prison, undoubtedly because of what happened to him.
I've seen no references in the writing for the character (as yet) that indicate any strong feelings one way or another about his homosexuality / bisexuality / phase (whatever the show wants to define it as) When he first arrived and had scenes with Edna - he seemed perfectly at ease with himself and even went some way to comfort Edna's guilt. We had one reference from Robert that alluded to something - but whatever it was, it was never elaborated on by the writers. I saw no indication that he was remotely "tempted" by Robert's rentboy or shamed by Robert's ploy beyond his fear of being imprisoned. I would even go as far as to say I've not seen any reaction to Robert's sexuality from Lawrence beyond his anger & disgust that he cheated on his daughter. That's what Iu was trying to say - all we know for sure is that he was in a loving and sexually active relationship with Edna's husband when young and that he had a long marriage which must have contained a sexual element as it produced 2 children and Lawrence claims was loving with his wife. So, it is very hard to know if he is gay but desperate not to be so with women forr 'show', whether he is bi sexual or whether edna's husband would have been a one off, even without the trauma it caused and he is basically straight. Maybe i'm reading too much into it, but shame, hatred or fear due to his time in Prison and what was done to him was how I'd read his recollections when talking to Bernice. That doesn't mean he thinks it is shaeful to be gay, he wouldn't have a problem with Aaron or Finn for example, or that he will try and deny his relationship with Edna's husband but it wasn't something he wanted for himself. |
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#102 |
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When he was young he had an affair with a man..in the days when it was illegal....that is all...
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#103 |
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That doesn't mean that he is fully gay. You can have an affair with a man and still be married to a woman and love them both.
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#104 |
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Oh yes. It was the only way he could avoid being sent to Prison.
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#105 |
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#106 |
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So - reading through the blurb - this sounds very much like they're trying to say Lawrence's history is that of a man who had a gay relationship, got imprisoned, given shock therapy and then made the decision to lead a heterosexual life from then onwards.
A heterosexual life in which he was successful and has no regrets about. Basically implying that sexuality is a "choice" - and by "choosing" to be heterosexual you can lead a satisfactory life. Sorry - but I hate this line that Kate Oates peddles about sexuality ![]()
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#107 |
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So - reading through the blurb - this sounds very much like they're trying to say Lawrence's history is that of a man who had a gay relationship, got imprisoned, given shock therapy and then made the decision to lead a heterosexual life from then onwards.
A heterosexual life in which he was successful and has no regrets about. Basically implying that sexuality is a "choice" - and by "choosing" to be heterosexual you can lead a satisfactory life. Sorry - but I hate this line that Kate Oates peddles about sexuality ![]() ![]() |
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#108 |
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Is she peddling a line though? Or is it Lawrence who's doing that? It sounds to me like he's the one trying to convince everyone (including himself) that he's not attracted to men. Which I couldn't blame him for after the experience he's had. I reckon Lawrence is lying to himself and everyone else. Especiallly Bernice. His wife may have been accepting and understanding of the situation and that's helped to convince him that they had a very happy marriage.
![]() Q- If it weren't for the laws of the 1960's and the aversion therapy, could Lawrence be leading a very different life to the one he's got now? A - No ![]() To me - that implies the "thinking" that the gender of your sexual partner is a "choice" She's had Vanessa "falling in love" with Rhona - now forgotten about. She had Ali - jumping back into bed with Dan (even though she'd left him and got married to a woman) God knows what we're supposed to think about Robert. |
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#109 |
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What does that involve?
I'm not an expert but i believe they give the man injections (hormones i assume) which reduces or even eradicates their sex drive Basically, their sexual desire and arousal diminishes so they can no longer get it up so will be unable to have sex and fulfill their 'unnatural' desires. I think that was the theory and how it worked. |
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#110 |
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So - reading through the blurb - this sounds very much like they're trying to say Lawrence's history is that of a man who had a gay relationship, got imprisoned, given shock therapy and then made the decision to lead a heterosexual life from then onwards.
A heterosexual life in which he was successful and has no regrets about. Basically implying that sexuality is a "choice" - and by "choosing" to be heterosexual you can lead a satisfactory life. Sorry - but I hate this line that Kate Oates peddles about sexuality ![]() ![]() Perhaps Lawrence doesn't regret his life that much? It does sound like he enjoyed his almost sexless 'friendship' marriage with his wife and their daughters, perhaps eventually batting down his sexuality became less important as the years went on and he found other things in life to enjoy? But I have no doubt that if someone really dug to the bottom of his feelings he'd have loved to have had the freedoms as a young man that gay men have nowadays where they can still have children but not have to marry and live a sexual lie to get them. I think there's still a lot more to come with this story and I'm finding it quite interesting. I only hope they play down 'comedy' Bernice, I'm sure the actress is capable of acting serious drama. Quote:
Only just seen this from over a week ago.
I'm not an expert but i believe they give the man injections (hormones i assume) which reduces or even eradicates their sex drive Basically, their sexual desire and arousal diminishes so they can no longer get it up so will be unable to have sex and fulfill their 'unnatural' desires. I think that was the theory and how it worked. Not just the physical changes but emotional ones - most women can tell you how oestrogen can f*** up your moods! I think they actually use the cure for some forms of prostate cancer now, but don't quote me on that! I'm not entirely sure. Quote:
Did you actually read the article
![]() Q- If it weren't for the laws of the 1960's and the aversion therapy, could Lawrence be leading a very different life to the one he's got now? A - No ![]() To me - that implies the "thinking" that the gender of your sexual partner is a "choice" She's had Vanessa "falling in love" with Rhona - now forgotten about. She had Ali - jumping back into bed with Dan (even though she'd left him and got married to a woman) God knows what we're supposed to think about Robert. But I think that Lawrence is a special case, he was effectively tortured. I think many people might 'choose' a lifestyle that's going to mean you don't to through it again, even a few years later on when it's legalised and you then go on to witness the emergence of openly gay men eventually leading to equal ops sexuality laws in work, adoption etc - something he probably never thought he'd see in his lifetime. But the 'treatment' inflicted on this man effectively froze him. Look how jumpy he was about prison? It didn't seem to compute with him that those practices have been outlawed yet he was worried sick for Chrissie for some reason even though she's not gay. I have no doubt as a gay man in prison in those days he was given a lot of abuse from fellow prisoners never mind the doctors wanting to 'cure' him of his 'affliction'. It's ground into his brain that prison = pain and abuse ![]() With hindsight I'm only amazed he forgave Edna!
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#111 |
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Agree with nearly everything you say Lotty.
Lawrence's dead wife is one of those characters who has the potential to become fascinating in death as their role is rather pivotal but we know so little about them. I always feel like that about Viv in EastEnders. Maybe she was nowhere near as happy as Lawrence believes. Maybe she was haing affairs left, right and centre and only stayed because of the money. Maybe she didn't have much of a sex drive herself? Maybe Lawrence wasn't very good at it (as she wasn't really his cup of tea) but not knowing any different (as many women still didn't that married in the late 60s/early 70s as they were virgins which I assume is their timescale) she assumed that was what sex was meant to be like so was happy to be 'left alone' except to make children and then all together after that? It all sounds pretty miserable for what most people would expect a marriage to be now but pretty nearly sexless marriages have always existed, much more so when divorce was still a taboo and people didn't talk about sex that much. And for all the sexual and gender poitics revolutions that were happening in the 60s and 70s, there were loads of people that didn't come into contact with it and did just stay married, concentrating on other aspects of their relationships and life. Like friendship, companionship, raising children. Sex is not the be all and end all. I'm not sure which drugs they use but Oestragen would make sense. Yes, they do use some variation of the same drugs to alleviate Prostate Cancer. They also, of course, still use chemical castration in a lot of countries, notably America as a punishment for sexual crimes against children. It is cheaper than prison and many believe it to be more effective. And that is what has to be remember her. Homosexuality was viewed as equally wrong, evil, against nature (whatever term you want to use) as Paedophilia until the middle of the 20th Century. I understand that is hard for many to believe, especially younger people, and thank god it has changed but it was the case. There were liberal people who despised what was being done, just as they despised racism but it was more the social 'norm' to view it as wrong. Yes, emmerdale has had a rather 'carefree attitude to sexuality, making it seem as though it is a choice. As well as those mentioned, we also had lipstick lesbians Debbie and Jasmine and virtually every girl Zoe tate fluttered her baby browns at switching teams at one stage. I can see why many are offended by it but i do think Lawrence is a special case and it is fascinating. |
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#112 |
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Bisexuality
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#113 |
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With hindsight I'm only amazed he forgave Edna!
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#114 |
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But this happened. Many gay men lived a lie primarily for social acceptance but I doubt they were seeing much action with their wives who for their own reasons put up with it. His 'choosing' to live a heterosexual life (or put on a heterosexual front) was probably self-preservation after what he'd been through. They were showing him pictures of naked men then giving him electric shocks! It's not hard to imagine that the 'cure' might 'work' on some people in that they started equating naked men to pain so didn't go there any more, hard thing to shake off if it's been burnt into your psyche. That doesn't mean they're heterosexual, just that those desires have been psychologically trampled on. But his doctors (or whoever) probably saw it as a success, yes he stopped having sex with men but not because he was 'straight' but because they messed with his head or made him just too damned frightened to go near a man again.
Perhaps Lawrence doesn't regret his life that much? It does sound like he enjoyed his almost sexless 'friendship' marriage with his wife and their daughters, perhaps eventually batting down his sexuality became less important as the years went on and he found other things in life to enjoy? But I have no doubt that if someone really dug to the bottom of his feelings he'd have loved to have had the freedoms as a young man that gay men have nowadays where they can still have children but not have to marry and live a sexual lie to get them. I think there's still a lot more to come with this story and I'm finding it quite interesting. I only hope they play down 'comedy' Bernice, I'm sure the actress is capable of acting serious drama. Wasn't it oestrogen? Hence the growing breasts, shrinking penis, voice getting higher etc. The hell those men must have gone through though Not just the physical changes but emotional ones - most women can tell you how oestrogen can f*** up your moods! I think they actually use the cure for some forms of prostate cancer now, but don't quote me on that! I'm not entirely sure. I agree wholeheartedly with the examples I've bolded. To say their sexuality is fluid is putting it mildly and it's all rather stupid. I can see why it would insult some viewers. But I think that Lawrence is a special case, he was effectively tortured. I think many people might 'choose' a lifestyle that's going to mean you don't to through it again, even a few years later on when it's legalised and you then go on to witness the emergence of openly gay men eventually leading to equal ops sexuality laws in work, adoption etc - something he probably never thought he'd see in his lifetime. But the 'treatment' inflicted on this man effectively froze him. Look how jumpy he was about prison? It didn't seem to compute with him that those practices have been outlawed yet he was worried sick for Chrissie for some reason even though she's not gay. I have no doubt as a gay man in prison in those days he was given a lot of abuse from fellow prisoners never mind the doctors wanting to 'cure' him of his 'affliction'. It's ground into his brain that prison = pain and abuse ![]() With hindsight I'm only amazed he forgave Edna! ![]()
Spoiler
I really think they need to explore his past more, but maybe he' ll open up to Bernice and be honest about his relationship with Edna' s husband, his feelings for his wife and that might help him to be honest with himself and try to get past the trauma. One good thing is that it might make people more aware of the effects that prejudice, repression and fear could have. I hope they don' t just skim over it all now they' ve raised it. |
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#115 |
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Did you actually read the article
![]() Q- If it weren't for the laws of the 1960's and the aversion therapy, could Lawrence be leading a very different life to the one he's got now? A - No ![]() To me - that implies the "thinking" that the gender of your sexual partner is a "choice" She's had Vanessa "falling in love" with Rhona - now forgotten about. She had Ali - jumping back into bed with Dan (even though she'd left him and got married to a woman) God knows what we're supposed to think about Robert. . I agree that the stuff with Vanessa and Rhona was unbelievable. Why could Ali not be bisexual? Although the whole scenario with Dan and her came out of nowhere and was very random and not particularly believable. Surely Robert' s bisexual? Why a young guy who's been raised in the 90 s should be so close minded and scared is puzzling but according to some FMs that' s quite common. I don' t think Robert' s choosing his sexuality, but he' s lying to himself about it. However I took the article to be referring to one individual character, Laurence who has been through a torturous, traumatic experience which has clearly traumatised him. I' m seeing him as an individual who' s had a devastating experience, not as representative of anyone else. That' s how I interpreted the article. I do get what you're getting at I think, and I agree that you don' t choose who your sexuality hut as I say, I' m treating the article as being entirely about Lawrence ,- an individual who' s in what must be a very unusual situation these days.
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#116 |
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Agree with nearly everything you say Lotty.
Lawrence's dead wife is one of those characters who has the potential to become fascinating in death as their role is rather pivotal but we know so little about them. I always feel like that about Viv in EastEnders. Maybe she was nowhere near as happy as Lawrence believes. Maybe she was haing affairs left, right and centre and only stayed because of the money. Maybe she didn't have much of a sex drive herself? Maybe Lawrence wasn't very good at it (as she wasn't really his cup of tea) but not knowing any different (as many women still didn't that married in the late 60s/early 70s as they were virgins which I assume is their timescale) she assumed that was what sex was meant to be like so was happy to be 'left alone' except to make children and then all together after that? It all sounds pretty miserable for what most people would expect a marriage to be now but pretty nearly sexless marriages have always existed, much more so when divorce was still a taboo and people didn't talk about sex that much. And for all the sexual and gender poitics revolutions that were happening in the 60s and 70s, there were loads of people that didn't come into contact with it and did just stay married, concentrating on other aspects of their relationships and life. Like friendship, companionship, raising children. Sex is not the be all and end all. I'm not sure which drugs they use but Oestragen would make sense. Yes, they do use some variation of the same drugs to alleviate Prostate Cancer. They also, of course, still use chemical castration in a lot of countries, notably America as a punishment for sexual crimes against children. It is cheaper than prison and many believe it to be more effective. And that is what has to be remember her. Homosexuality was viewed as equally wrong, evil, against nature (whatever term you want to use) as Paedophilia until the middle of the 20th Century. I understand that is hard for many to believe, especially younger people, and thank god it has changed but it was the case. There were liberal people who despised what was being done, just as they despised racism but it was more the social 'norm' to view it as wrong. Yes, emmerdale has had a rather 'carefree attitude to sexuality, making it seem as though it is a choice. As well as those mentioned, we also had lipstick lesbians Debbie and Jasmine and virtually every girl Zoe tate fluttered her baby browns at switching teams at one stage. I can see why many are offended by it but i do think Lawrence is a special case and it is fascinating. My understanding of aversion therapy is that its supposed feelings of revulsion. It seems to me that what' s happened is not revulsion but terror of being exposed to the therapy which is torture and impisonment again. So the therapy did not do what it was meant to do which wadbto make Lawrence heterosexual but it has, along with imprisonment, had a terrible psychological effect on him and potentially caused him to deny his sexuality. Other more resilient people nay have been able to recover from the torture and be less afraid to be honest. |
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#117 |
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Isn't another interesting point here is that Edna was also condemned to a sexless, and possibly loveless marriage who found meaning and comfort in life elsewhere - by raising her sister's illegitimate child as her own, in pets and in region and community service which was quite judgemental and harmful at first but has become kinder as she has aged.
Now some would see Edna's personal life as a waste due to her having married a gay man and not ever considered trying with another man, others would see it as a triumph that she found meaning elsewhere. |
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#118 |
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Isn't another interesting point here is that Edna was also condemned to a sexless, and possibly loveless marriage who found meaning and comfort in life elsewhere - by raising her sister's illegitimate child as her own, in pets and in region and community service which was quite judgemental and harmful at first but has become kinder as she has aged.
Now some would see Edna's personal life as a waste due to her having married a gay man and not ever considered trying with another man, others would see it as a triumph that she found meaning elsewhere. Edna' s marriage does seem to have been loveless ( he told her she was responsible for a man' s death, after all ), yet like many iof her generation, marriage was for life regardless of individual circumstances
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#119 |
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When all is said and done Larry is a very decent man.
Also, as i touched on earlier, perhaps he is intelligent or empathetic enough to see that she was a victim of their times as well. I think any ongoing resentment went when he discovered that she had stayed loyal to her husband, and never had a 'full' loving relationship with a man. Plus the guilt she clearly felt and had arguably been punishing herself with for sending him to Prison. |
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#120 |
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Good point
Edna' s marriage does seem to have been loveless ( he told her she was responsible for a man' s death, after all ), yet like many iof her generation, marriage was for life regardless of individual circumstancesIt does stroke me that he (what was his name) was the villain of the piece in a difficult situation. He married a woman probably knowing he was gay. He had an affair with a man fairly soon after marriage. He threw that young man to the gos to get out of a Prisone sentence himself. He then liked to his wife that the young man had killed himself, condemning her to a lifetimes's guilt. He doesn't appeared to have even tried to make the marriage work sexually, emotionally or even practically - Edna is hardly rolling in it due to money or pensions from her husband is she. |
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#121 |
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Absolutely. I wouldn' t mind betting the sexless or at least barely - any- sex marriage was quite common and maybe still is. I think Lawrence and his wife could have had a contented companionship type of marriage. Lawrence might not have a high sex drive anyway, so he might have found it quite easy to deny any attraction he felt to men. As you say she could have been having affairs all over the place. We can' t tell because so far we' re only getting what Lawrence is telling people.
My understanding of aversion therapy is that its supposed feelings of revulsion. It seems to me that what' s happened is not revulsion but terror of being exposed to the therapy which is torture and impisonment again. So the therapy did not do what it was meant to do which wadbto make Lawrence heterosexual but it has, along with imprisonment, had a terrible psychological effect on him and potentially caused him to deny his sexuality. Other more resilient people nay have been able to recover from the torture and be less afraid to be honest. What it might also have done is make him hate/fear sex full stop. When he first came out from Prison he associated men with his aversion therapy (plus terror of going back to Prison) so wouldn't go there. Maybe didn't even want to sexually if he associated naked images with pain so might not even indulge in fantasies. That doesn't mean that the aversion therapy made him find girls sexually attractive. I don't recall him saying they attached vibrators to give him jollies when girls were shown so positive therapy. But, the fact is, whether people want to accept it or not, some people (not all, but some) can either force themselves to have sex with a gender that isn't their preferred (birth, environment) gender or do it because they love them as a person. To be fair, the second is probably more true for women than men due to the intrinsic 'lay back and think of England' physicality of women - ie it is easier though not desirable or right) for sex to happen when they are not aroused but the man is than vice versa. I grew up with men that were gay and scared to say for various reasons - mainly society at the time and then the AIDS backlash when we were in our late teens. I have come into contact with older men, who married when young and didn't come out until they were in their 40s or 50s (about 15/20 years ago) due to social pressure when they were young. These men genuinely loved their wives and their children. They wouldn"t describe themselves as bisexual. They'5 say thay are gay but couldn't live that way when they were young, wnnted a 'normal' life which involved a partner and children and marrying was the best way of doing it to not only het a new life for themselves but have do what they were expected to for their parents. |
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#122 |
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It's a shame soaps have shot themselves in the foot by using sexuality stories for cheap tricks so often - Vanessa and Ali/Dan spring to mind for sure. So it makes you wary as a viewer.
But I honestly find Lawrence's story interesting. He's obviously been through a major emotional, psychological and physical trauma, and it's affected him for life. He's repressed any same sex feelings, but he still has them. He was sheltered for years by finding a woman he loved in at least a companionable way and having a family. Now he's on his own, and struggling with trying to build a new relationship with all his issues. It's a really complex thing for a soap to wrestle with. It's all up for debate, but at the moment I read him as bisexual (he's supposed to be attracted to Bernice), but repressing all of his sexual impulses, and especially his same sex ones. I just hope they do it justice really - the actor's good, so it could be ace, but we'll see. |
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#123 |
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You have to feel.for poor Lawence
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#124 |
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If sex & attraction is not the be all and end all - why choose a woman who is young enough to be Lawrence's daughter for this storyline.
![]() If he's still just looking for "companionship", as those who have replied to me are suggesting - why choose a, let's just say, "sexually voracious" woman like Bernice as the woman he sets his cap to ![]() I'm not disputing the fact that Lawrence has been afraid or had terrible things done to him because of his early relationship with a man, or that that was how "it was" back in those days. What makes me distinctly uncomfortable about the way this storyline is being depicted and about the way Lawrence is being written - is that this storyline seems to be implying that sexuality can be "controlled" - like it's some sort of addiction that just needs to be kept on top of. Like it's an "urge" that can be quashed - and as long as there are "sympathetic" heterosexual women out there who are willing to "help you" and make allowances for having those desires (as long as you don't act upon them) - then you CAN lead a "normal" heterosexual existence. |
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#125 |
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If sex & attraction is not the be all and end all - why choose a woman who is young enough to be Lawrence's daughter for this storyline.
![]() If he's still just looking for "companionship", as those who have replied to me are suggesting - why choose a, let's just say, "sexually voracious" woman like Bernice as the woman he sets his cap to ![]() I'm not disputing the fact that Lawrence has been afraid or had terrible things done to him because of his early relationship with a man, or that that was how "it was" back in those days. What makes me distinctly uncomfortable about the way this storyline is being depicted and about the way Lawrence is being written - is that this storyline seems to be implying that sexuality can be "controlled" - like it's some sort of addiction that just needs to be kept on top of. Like it's an "urge" that can be quashed - and as long as there are "sympathetic" heterosexual women out there who are willing to "help you" and make allowances for having those desires (as long as you don't act upon them) - then you CAN lead a "normal" heterosexual existence. My feeling is that it isn't his sexuality isn't being controlled but actually eradicated re any desire for men or women and that is something that Bernice will find harder and harder to deal with as the relationship progresses. Which is where the drama will come from. As to why he has chosen a younger woman. Well firstly, there aren't many age appropriate women in the show and the ones that are either aren't single (Diane, Lisa, Brenda - just) or he has history with which would count them out (Edna). Also, maybe he just likes Bernice - her personality? Zest for life? And expects the same kind of relationship as he had with his dead wife so it won't occur to him that she'll be more invested and expectent re the sexual side of things? |
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Not just the physical changes but emotional ones - most women can tell you how oestrogen can f*** up your moods! 
. I agree that the stuff with Vanessa and Rhona was unbelievable. Why could Ali not be bisexual? Although the whole scenario with Dan and her came out of nowhere and was very random and not particularly believable. Surely Robert' s bisexual? Why a young guy who's been raised in the 90 s should be so close minded and scared is puzzling but according to some FMs that' s quite common. I don' t think Robert' s choosing his sexuality, but he' s lying to himself about it. However I took the article to be referring to one individual character, Laurence who has been through a torturous, traumatic experience which has clearly traumatised him. I' m seeing him as an individual who' s had a devastating experience, not as representative of anyone else. That' s how I interpreted the article. I do get what you're getting at I think, and I agree that you don' t choose who your sexuality hut as I say, I' m treating the article as being entirely about Lawrence ,- an individual who' s in what must be a very unusual situation these days.