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Did Lawrence Whites "gay cure" past really happen to homosexuals?


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Old 14-10-2015, 10:21
cyrilandshirley
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What makes me distinctly uncomfortable about the way this storyline is being depicted and about the way Lawrence is being written - is that this storyline seems to be implying that sexuality can be "controlled" - like it's some sort of addiction that just needs to be kept on top of.
Like it's an "urge" that can be quashed - and as long as there are "sympathetic" heterosexual women out there who are willing to "help you" and make allowances for having those desires (as long as you don't act upon them) - then you CAN lead a "normal" heterosexual existence.
I don't think the show is saying sexuality can be controlled or chosen. I think they're trying to show that Lawrence is trying to control his, for reasons related to the treatment he received. I hope that they'll deal with his feelings for both men and women. Who knows, maybe the whole thing with Bernice will go horribly wrong? Maybe he'll be forced to confront his past when it falls apart?

I agree that if they just show Lawrence as in some way "fixed" by the love of a nice hetero woman, they'll have dropped the ball.

As to why he's chosen Bernice, well I guess she's there, she's nice, she's sympathetic, she's attractive, she seems to like him, and for the same reason a lot of older people go for younger partners - it makes him feel young again.
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Old 14-10-2015, 11:18
margarite6666
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http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/victim_1962/

If you can watch the film 'Victim' which comes on tv now and again. Dirk Bogarde as well as Denis Price starred in it as well as another gay man. Of course at the time it was illegal and Dirk was portrayed as the handsome leading man. It was amazingly courageous of him as many actors even today won't play gay in case someone suggests they are gay and ruin their careers. Rupert Everett said this is what happened to him.

It was a few more years before it was legalised but the film shows why it was. It points out that it was a charter for blackmail. There is also the hairdresser character who expresses what it was like to go to jail on multiple occasions and the prison doctor telling him to be 'sensible'. This film is a great snapshot of how things were. I especially like the detective telling his boss that the law was there for a reason and if it was legalised other 'defects' would come to the fore. His boss tells him he is a puritan and that this was illegal too at one time.
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Old 14-10-2015, 12:11
craig_25
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It’s my guess that Lawrence has put his sexuality to the back of his mind and focused his attention to every other part of his life (possibly why he is so successful in business) he has shown before that he can love and maintain a relationship with a woman (Chrissie and Rebecca’s mother) and I think he has insisted before that he was faithful to her throughout their marriage?

I assume his relationship with Bernice is a further extension of that, and that whilst he may not hold a strong sexual attraction to Bernice (or any other woman) he is mature enough to see that she is a beautiful and kind hearted person, she enjoys his company and makes him feel desired and wanted and surprisingly she is understanding of his situation. Bernice isn’t in denial of Lawrence’s sexuality and she has already shown that the lack of a physical side to their relationship bothers her slightly, but in the long run, she loves Lawrence for everything else he can offer her, companionship, love, a certain degree of power and prestige, money and lifestyle.

For the moment, I think both seem happy to forego the sexual side of their relationship and enjoy a life of mutual companionship.......I don’t think it’ll last though. I’d be annoyed to see Lawrence do the cheating, he maintained a long and happy marriage to his wife without being tempted and I believe he could do that again with the right woman, but Bernice is quite a sexual and selfish person, she enjoys men and needs to feel desired, IMO she will grow tired of being a trophy wife and companion to Lawrence and seek elsewhere what she isn’t getting at home, let’s get real here she’s certainly got form!!
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Old 14-10-2015, 13:24
Oldnjaded
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It’s my guess that Lawrence has put his sexuality to the back of his mind and focused his attention to every other part of his life (possibly why he is so successful in business) he has shown before that he can love and maintain a relationship with a woman (Chrissie and Rebecca’s mother) and I think he has insisted before that he was faithful to her throughout their marriage?

I assume his relationship with Bernice is a further extension of that, and that whilst he may not hold a strong sexual attraction to Bernice (or any other woman) he is mature enough to see that she is a beautiful and kind hearted person, she enjoys his company and makes him feel desired and wanted and surprisingly she is understanding of his situation. Bernice isn’t in denial of Lawrence’s sexuality and she has already shown that the lack of a physical side to their relationship bothers her slightly, but in the long run, she loves Lawrence for everything else he can offer her, companionship, love, a certain degree of power and prestige, money and lifestyle.

For the moment, I think both seem happy to forego the sexual side of their relationship and enjoy a life of mutual companionship.......I don’t think it’ll last though. I’d be annoyed to see Lawrence do the cheating, he maintained a long and happy marriage to his wife without being tempted and I believe he could do that again with the right woman, but Bernice is quite a sexual and selfish person, she enjoys men and needs to feel desired, IMO she will grow tired of being a trophy wife and companion to Lawrence and seek elsewhere what she isn’t getting at home, let’s get real here she’s certainly got form!!
Yes I agree with that, and whilst she is an extremely attractive woman, Bernice will be 47 in December and sex, although very enjoyable, tends not to be the be all and end all at that age, particularly if you're ever so slightly snobby and have the compensation of being mistress of Home Farm.

But soap is soap so of course they're not going to live happily ever after - at least not until they've wrung every permutation of cheating storylines out of both halves of the relationship.
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Old 14-10-2015, 13:38
Glendarroch
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Yes I agree with that, and whilst she is an extremely attractive woman, Bernice will be 47 in December and sex, although very enjoyable, tends not to be the be all and end all at that age, particularly if you're ever so slightly snobby and have the compensation of being mistress of Home Farm.

But soap is soap so of course they're not going to live happily ever after - at least not until they've wrung every permutation of cheating storylines out of both halves of the relationship.
I think Bernice sees Lawrence as someone safe who' ll be good to her and is financially secure but I do wonder if in the long run she' ll want more than that? I think a lot of her self esteem comes from men being attracted to her.
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Old 14-10-2015, 16:07
samcains90
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So - reading through the blurb - this sounds very much like they're trying to say Lawrence's history is that of a man who had a gay relationship, got imprisoned, given shock therapy and then made the decision to lead a heterosexual life from then onwards.
A heterosexual life in which he was successful and has no regrets about.

Basically implying that sexuality is a "choice" - and by "choosing" to be heterosexual you can lead a satisfactory life.



Sorry - but I hate this line that Kate Oates peddles about sexuality
I understand where you are coming from with regards to this storyline when we have had such a high number of sexual fluidity storylines under the same writers and producers, it makes it hard to figure out what message we are being sent and I can totally understand why it is insulting to you. And were it not for those other stories I could accept this one with no qualms but it leaves a bit of a bad taste in my mouth along with the others.

Take the other stories away though and we do have a very interesting tale of someone who once loved a man, suffer through a very traumatic experience that has made him afraid or repulsed by his sexual preference. Though, for me, that has failed to be put across. Lawrence has never once come across as ashamed about his past, though perhaps I am misremembering. Pairing him up with Bernice though, seems odd to me.

I don't know, I will attempt to refrain from judging it until after its been on. I am not anticipating a decent outcome,. however.
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Old 14-10-2015, 16:57
SULLA
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If sex & attraction is not the be all and end all - why choose a woman who is young enough to be Lawrence's daughter for this storyline.

If he's still just looking for "companionship", as those who have replied to me are suggesting - why choose a, let's just say, "sexually voracious" woman like Bernice as the woman he sets his cap to


I'm not disputing the fact that Lawrence has been afraid or had terrible things done to him because of his early relationship with a man, or that that was how "it was" back in those days.


What makes me distinctly uncomfortable about the way this storyline is being depicted and about the way Lawrence is being written - is that this storyline seems to be implying that sexuality can be "controlled" - like it's some sort of addiction that just needs to be kept on top of.
Like it's an "urge" that can be quashed - and as long as there are "sympathetic" heterosexual women out there who are willing to "help you" and make allowances for having those desires (as long as you don't act upon them) - then you CAN lead a "normal" heterosexual existence.
He needs someone like The Fabulous One. She would be quite happy with a platonic relationship.
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Old 14-10-2015, 17:08
Oldnjaded
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He needs someone like The Fabulous One. She would be quite happy with a platonic relationship.
Only until she needed to either explain away or blackmail him with yet another pregnancy.
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Old 14-10-2015, 18:15
sheepiefarm
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Whilst I'm not disputing any of the posts people have been making about Lawrence and how they perceive him....

I would just like to point out.....

That NONE of this has been explained narratively within the context of the character in the show.

The show has given us NO INSIGHT from Lawrence's perspective (beyond the one scene where he just mentioned what they DID to him)

And this is the thing that bothers me most from it being used as a storyline.

For the moment the narrative for Lawrence has been

I had a relationship with a man
I was jailed and suffered terribly for it
I married a woman - had a family - and am now pursuing another relationship with a woman.


Maybe they'll expand more on how Lawrence felt about himself, his sexuality, society's need for him to conform and the affect that has had on the way he's lived his life.

But with Kate Oates - I'm not banking on it.
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Old 14-10-2015, 18:33
Oldnjaded
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Actually Sheepie, although it's all true what you say, I think we're probably going to get a lot more insight into Laurence when it comes out
Spoiler
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Old 14-10-2015, 18:38
SULLA
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Only until she needed to either explain away or blackmail him with yet another pregnancy.
Actually, I don't think that she is that interested in sex.
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Old 14-10-2015, 18:45
cyrilandshirley
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Actually, I don't think that she is that interested in sex.
I don't know why, I totally would. Lawrence is a cuddly babe.
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Old 14-10-2015, 18:49
Oldnjaded
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Actually, I don't think that she is that interested in sex.
Really? As someone said on another thread today, her self-esteem seems to depend almost entirely on her having a man to desire her. She's very needy that way, (nearly as bad as Chas).

I don't know why, I totally would. Lawrence is a cuddly babe.
I wouldn't kick him out of bed either.
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Old 14-10-2015, 18:55
sheepiefarm
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Actually Sheepie, although it's all true what you say, I think we're probably going to get a lot more insight into Laurence when it comes out
Spoiler


Maybe - but the article seems to stress that his difficulty with physical intimacy is because of what they did to him in prison.
What he experienced, because he was supposedly gay, has also affected his ability to be physically intimate with women - and yet - he's still willing to pursue women (even though he no longer "has" to)

It also talks about there being a "sexual attraction" to Bernice but it's his problems with physical intimacy (because of what they did to him) that makes him reticent to pursue that element with Bernice.


There's absolutely no mention of how he feels about men



It seems to me that the basic thrust of this story is
Lawrence got given aversion therapy for being in a gay relationship - and this now affects his ability to be in a heterosexual relationship
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Old 14-10-2015, 19:34
jabegy
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And then again, he could be bi-sexual,
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Old 14-10-2015, 19:43
sheepiefarm
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And then again, he could be bi-sexual,
Yep - probably, knowing Kate Oates - having them be bi-sexual is her "get out of jail free" card.
That way she can just have them jumping into bed with anyone, regardless of gender, just as long as she gets her sensationalist story out of it.


Oh well - on that basis - we can assume that aversion therapy works and stops bisexuals from bedding the same gender again.
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Old 14-10-2015, 19:56
lou_123
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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Warren

Not really anything to do with Lawrence or Emmerdale, but I found Tony Warren's wiki page very interesting. If you look under his 'Personal life', it says he was treated badly by homophobic writers, during the 60's.

Very ironic, as quite a lot of soap writers now are gay.
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Old 14-10-2015, 20:00
Oldnjaded
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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Warren

Not really anything to do with Lawrence or Emmerdale, but I found Tony Warren's wiki page very interesting. If you look under his 'Personal life', it says he was treated badly by homophobic writers, during the 60's.

Very ironic, as quite a lot of soap writers now are gay.
Not really. I'm sure he was treated badly by people from all walks of life in the 60s, when it was illegal and perceived to be deviant behaviour.
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Old 14-10-2015, 20:14
samcains90
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Whilst I'm not disputing any of the posts people have been making about Lawrence and how they perceive him....

I would just like to point out.....

That NONE of this has been explained narratively within the context of the character in the show.

The show has given us NO INSIGHT from Lawrence's perspective (beyond the one scene where he just mentioned what they DID to him)

And this is the thing that bothers me most from it being used as a storyline.

For the moment the narrative for Lawrence has been

I had a relationship with a man
I was jailed and suffered terribly for it
I married a woman - had a family - and am now pursuing another relationship with a woman.


Maybe they'll expand more on how Lawrence felt about himself, his sexuality, society's need for him to conform and the affect that has had on the way he's lived his life.

But with Kate Oates - I'm not banking on it.
Me either. For her, this is not the part of the story that matters. She just wants to do an issue based storyline based on a sexless relationship, not delve into the character of Lawrence.
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Old 14-10-2015, 22:20
cyrilandshirley
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Me either. For her, this is not the part of the story that matters. She just wants to do an issue based storyline based on a sexless relationship, not delve into the character of Lawrence.
I kind of agree actually, with you and sheepiefarm. It is a bit weird, isn't it, to explore a man's reaction to aversion therapy through his relationship with a woman. As if to say, oh, it's a story about sexual intimacy, not about same sex feelings, and the repression of them.

They have to address Lawrence's feelings about men at some point. If they do, great. If they don't - massive fail.
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Old 14-10-2015, 22:45
Oldnjaded
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I kind of agree actually, with you and sheepiefarm. It is a bit weird, isn't it, to explore a man's reaction to aversion therapy through his relationship with a woman. As if to say, oh, it's a story about sexual intimacy, not about same sex feelings, and the repression of them.

They have to address Lawrence's feelings about men at some point. If they do, great. If they don't - massive fail.
I'm confident, (or at least stupidly optimistic), that he will open up to Bernice about that before too long.

And tbh, it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if the aversion therapy had put him off sex altogether, with either sex. Aversion therapy is called that for a reason, (remember Clockwork Orange?) and although it can't change who you are, I imagine it can certainly mess with your head enough to change how you behave afterwards.
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Old 14-10-2015, 22:48
samcains90
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I kind of agree actually, with you and sheepiefarm. It is a bit weird, isn't it, to explore a man's reaction to aversion therapy through his relationship with a woman. As if to say, oh, it's a story about sexual intimacy, not about same sex feelings, and the repression of them.

They have to address Lawrence's feelings about men at some point. If they do, great. If they don't - massive fail.
Yep, as sheepiefarm has already said, by choosing to ignore the issue, they're implying that aversion therapy works and that a gay person can choose to live a heterosexual life if they want to.

I would like to think that we will be delving into the matter in due course, but it doesn't look likely, and if not, then at least have Lawrence explain that he has always had feelings for men and women. Though, if he did, why would he get involved in a homosexual relationship in the first place when the risk was so high?
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Old 15-10-2015, 01:07
Glendarroch
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I'm confident, (or at least stupidly optimistic), that he will open up to Bernice about that before too long.

And tbh, it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if the aversion therapy had put him off sex altogether, with either sex. Aversion therapy is called that for a reason, (remember Clockwork Orange?) and although it can't change who you are, I imagine it can certainly mess with your head enough to change how you behave afterwards.
Did you see the Louis Theroux programme when he tried it? It' s seriously disturbing stuff
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Old 15-10-2015, 12:21
kitkat1971
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I'm confident, (or at least stupidly optimistic), that he will open up to Bernice about that before too long.

And tbh, it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if the aversion therapy had put him off sex altogether, with either sex. Aversion therapy is called that for a reason, (remember Clockwork Orange?) and although it can't change who you are, I imagine it can certainly mess with your head enough to change how you behave afterwards.
Yes, that is what i was trying to say in a prior post. Not so much that it put him off sex all together (but that is possible) but that it put him off sex with men and as he was never attracted to women in the first place, effectively that means any sexual activity became unappealing (to put it mildly).
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Old 15-10-2015, 17:24
A Bad Thriller
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Robert and Lawerence don't want a label. Surely that is their right?
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