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Has SCD ever considered including a Jazz category


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Old 15-10-2015, 01:24
DiamondBetty
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Thans Betty for identifying trad jazz steps in Charleston. . In terms of music, what (other) dances might it fit?
Traditional Jazz (as opposed to free ranging modern Jazz, beloved by stereotypical beatniks in black polo necks!) evolved alongside the Swing dances (Lindy Hop, Collegiate Shag, St Louis Shag, Balboa, Blues, Charleston, Vernacular Jazz, Rhythm Tap and a bunch of local dances that most people have forgotten about or never really had names).

Some of these dances/elements of these dances were adapted and syllabised (is that a word?) and became part of Quickstep and Latin Jive, but this isn't really my area I believe that almost all the dances we know and love through Strictly came from the same African roots anyway.

This video gives me no end of amusement, "Taming the Jitterbugs for the UK Ballrooms" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45T2uX3BEC0

The Swing era died off slowly throughout WWII and it's aftermath - partly because we sent the men that played in the big bands away to war, partly because we could no longer afford to pay the numbers of musicians that made up big bands after the war, partly because some of those musicians didn't come back from the war, partly because it all seemed too decadent after the war. Bands became smaller, the music automatically became simpler and the dancing evolved through Jitterbug and into rock and roll type Jive dancing (which isn't much like Latin Jive in styling, but in mechanics and physics, not much changed).

SCD could use Trad Jazz for Quickstep, Charleston, Foxtrot, American Smooth and the Swingathon, depending on the type of Jazz and the tempo it's played at.

********

Lindy Hop was awful when they tried it (in part because it just looked like a poor imitation of quite a complex street dance, as I am sure SCD Salsa and AT appear to their respective practitioners, in part because it was Chris Hollins that did it) so I'd really rather they left that well alone, Balboa and Blues are dances you feel, rather than spectate, so not much for a TV audience there, St Louis Shag is pretty rare, so I doubt they could even find adequate outside choreographers for that. Collegiate Shag could be fun, but the pros won't know it, and the public doesn't know it, so it would be unnecessarily shoe-horned in. Best left well alone, really
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Old 15-10-2015, 02:06
DiamondBetty
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I was just watching some Blues competition stuff on YouTube and it occurs to me that it looks like Rumba and Blues share the same roots, much the way that Lindy Hop and Latin Jive do (although the split path probably happened 150 years earlier).

See what you think? Couples 1 and 4 are my favourites!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtXSPYEiKCY

(the two girls in those couples are actually teaching a 'Ladies of Jazz' solo dance workshop this weekend in London. I can't go though. Waah!)

(and interestingly, the Argentinian couple's Blues dance looks remarkably like the SCD interpretation of AT!)
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Old 15-10-2015, 09:44
An Thropologist
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I was just watching some Blues competition stuff on YouTube and it occurs to me that it looks like Rumba and Blues share the same roots, much the way that Lindy Hop and Latin Jive do (although the split path probably happened 150 years earlier).

See what you think? Couples 1 and 4 are my favourites!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtXSPYEiKCY

(the two girls in those couples are actually teaching a 'Ladies of Jazz' solo dance workshop this weekend in London. I can't go though. Waah!)

(and interestingly, the Argentinian couple's Blues dance looks remarkably like the SCD interpretation of AT!)
Rumba as far as I know Betty is derived from Afro Cuban roots. Afro rhythms and a call and response type of format with melodic elements from European sources. At least that has always been my understanding. The Cuban rumba has 3 forms these days yumba guaguanco and colombia. I always theugh the ballroom version was spelled rhumba to differentiate)

Yumba is quite slow and I would think that is where ballroom rumba comes from. It is romantic and sort of stately.

Guaguanco is faster and really quite raunchy. It is a display in which the guy tries to possess the woman's sexual energy (so to speak). The moves are around him trying to touch her - you know where. The process is something called the vacanaou or injection ( I will leave your imaginations to do the rest) and she tries not to let him touch her by moving away , artistically and teases him both for failing to touch her and to tempt him in. So it looks like a cat and mouse sort of thing when danced traditionally

The Colombia is traditionally danced by men only and is more about showing off agility, power and prowess.

I don't know much about blues except it has afro roots and I think call and response too. Hopefully someone knows more.
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Old 15-10-2015, 10:05
An Thropologist
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I was just watching some Blues competition stuff on YouTube and it occurs to me that it looks like Rumba and Blues share the same roots, much the way that Lindy Hop and Latin Jive do (although the split path probably happened 150 years earlier).

See what you think? Couples 1 and 4 are my favourites!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtXSPYEiKCY

(the two girls in those couples are actually teaching a 'Ladies of Jazz' solo dance workshop this weekend in London. I can't go though. Waah!)

(and interestingly, the Argentinian couple's Blues dance looks remarkably like the SCD interpretation of AT!)
I see what you mean about the AT borrowing too. Not only the Argentine couple. The first couple up also had AT elements. Interesting that they change their axis throughout the dance from back weighted/upright to pitched forward in the traditional AT A frame.

I don't know much about the AT dance roots, only the social roots but not the dance characteristics. Sofakat will know.

What I do know is that I love dancing AT to jazz and blues. My favourite is My Funny Valentine. But anything by Loius Armstrong, Ella Fitzgerald, Billy Holiday gets my vote. There seems to be more to interpret to my mind than traditional Argentine Tango music
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Old 15-10-2015, 10:06
Ellie_
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I wonder if anyone ever settles down to Match of the Day and thinks; "What this programme really needs is a bat and a wicket. Or when watching GBBO thinks "They should get them to make a casserole one week?
Totally agree. It's about latin and ballroom dancing. They've already included Salsa, Charleston and argentine tango (which are apparently pale imitations of what the dances are actually like - I personally quite enjoy some of the ATs especially) so why branch out even more?

International style latin and ballroom is designed to be performed, marked, judged etc. They are competitive dances. Salsa and argentine tango are not (I'm sure there are competitions but they are social dances first and foremost.)

Regarding contemporary which a few have spoken about, I also absolutely cannot stand contemporary unless it's danced very very well so I don't really want to see the celebs do it (obligatory: other than jay.) Please never include contemporary in scd... please!
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Old 15-10-2015, 10:07
Nicky_Gardenov
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i would like to see a Jazz dance on strictly
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Old 15-10-2015, 10:10
Ellie_
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I was just watching some Blues competition stuff on YouTube and it occurs to me that it looks like Rumba and Blues share the same roots, much the way that Lindy Hop and Latin Jive do (although the split path probably happened 150 years earlier).

See what you think? Couples 1 and 4 are my favourites!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtXSPYEiKCY

(the two girls in those couples are actually teaching a 'Ladies of Jazz' solo dance workshop this weekend in London. I can't go though. Waah!)

(and interestingly, the Argentinian couple's Blues dance looks remarkably like the SCD interpretation of AT!)
Why do I get the feeling that the first lady (I think her name is Ksenia?) has come from latin and ballroom? Great video btw. I've seen the first guy do an amazing routine with a lady who swing dances in pointe shoes.
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Old 15-10-2015, 10:14
An Thropologist
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Totally agree. It's about latin and ballroom dancing. They've already included Salsa, Charleston and argentine tango (which are apparently pale imitations of what the dances are actually like - I personally quite enjoy some of the ATs especially) so why branch out even more?

International style latin and ballroom is designed to be performed, marked, judged etc. They are competitive dances. Salsa and argentine tango are not (I'm sure there are competitions but they are social dances first and foremost.)

Regarding contemporary which a few have spoken about, I also absolutely cannot stand contemporary unless it's danced very very well so I don't really want to see the celebs do it (obligatory: other than jay.) Please never include contemporary in scd... please!
Yes I thik that is about right. I think the thing with competitive ballroom and ballroom Latin is that identifiable figures have been identified and codified so that they can be compared one couple to another. So you can see if one couple's New Yorkers for example are better than another.

There are salsa competitions but I don't believe they have have to contain specific figures which are compared and marked in the same way. AT does have figures but to insist on a dance comprising of set patterns would seem to betray the point of the dance which is lead and follow with interpretation being totally spontaneous and a sort of exchange taking place between the couple.
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Old 15-10-2015, 10:19
DiamondBetty
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Why do I get the feeling that the first lady (I think her name is Ksenia?) has come from latin and ballroom? Great video btw. I've seen the first guy do an amazing routine with a lady who swing dances in pointe shoes.
You are right! http://kseniaparkhatskaya.com/portfolio/dance/

She's an amazing Charleston dancer, and has been on the Russian (I presume*) version of '... Got Talent'. Maybe SCD bosses should be looking Ksenia's way for their next new pro?


*nope, I was wrong, the Ukranian version!
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Old 15-10-2015, 10:28
Ellie_
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Yes I thik that is about right. I think the thing with competitive ballroom and ballroom Latin is that identifiable figures have been identified and codified so that they can be compared one couple to another. So you can see if one couple's New Yorkers for example are better than another.

There are salsa competitions but I don't believe they have have to contain specific figures which are compared and marked in the same way. AT does have figures but to insist on a dance comprising of set patterns would seem to betray the point of the dance which is lead and follow with interpretation being totally spontaneous and a sort of exchange taking place between the couple.
Yeah I saw a youtube video of an AT competition and a comment underneath said something like "to make AT competitive is to entirely miss the point of the dance." That's why SCD ATs look nothing like real AT I guess. Got to put some flash and bang in for saturday night entertainment! I personally quite enjoy them usually but I see it as like a different dance to "real AT" which I also enjoy watching and would like to learn one day.

Kind of proud to be right about the ex latin and ballroom dancer! My total obsession with it must be paying off.

Btw this is the swing dancing en pointe video I was talking about. I'm sure I've posted it before but it's so beautiful it's worth a second viewing;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rE7yi8Zfn0w
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Old 15-10-2015, 10:44
An Thropologist
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Yeah I saw a youtube video of an AT competition and a comment underneath said something like "to make AT competitive is to entirely miss the point of the dance." That's why SCD ATs look nothing like real AT I guess. Got to put some flash and bang in for saturday night entertainment! I personally quite enjoy them usually but I see it as like a different dance to "real AT" which I also enjoy watching and would like to learn one day.

Kind of proud to be right about the ex latin and ballroom dancer! My total obsession with it must be paying off.

Btw this is the swing dancing en pointe video I was talking about. I'm sure I've posted it before but it's so beautiful it's worth a second viewing;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rE7yi8Zfn0w
Brilliant I enjoyed that in its own right. And I enjoy seeing experts mash and blend dance styles, but just not in this show. If someone were to create another dance show on a different premise I would certainly watch. Maybe comparing and contrasting the origins of dance and getting real dancers to compete in making the best fusions for example ( OK so I may not pitch that just yet. )

For me SCD has to have some integrity and the integrity in this case is ballroom dance/Latin ballroom. That is what makes it. If you are going to pretend it is a competition (which it really isn't) you need to have some benchmarks and some level playing field on which to start (which of course they don't!). Ballroom is ideal because it already has a standard code book, as it were, with clear figures that are well known established and bench-marked.

If they were to include a Jazz dance round why not a some ballet, a Highland Fling or Irish dance or a gavotte.
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Old 15-10-2015, 10:46
sofakat
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Rumba as far as I know Betty is derived from Afro Cuban roots. Afro rhythms and a call and response type of format with melodic elements from European sources. At least that has always been my understanding. The Cuban rumba has 3 forms these days yumba guaguanco and colombia. I always theugh the ballroom version was spelled rhumba to differentiate)

Yumba is quite slow and I would think that is where ballroom rumba comes from. It is romantic and sort of stately.

Guaguanco is faster and really quite raunchy. It is a display in which the guy tries to possess the woman's sexual energy (so to speak). The moves are around him trying to touch her - you know where. The process is something called the vacanaou or injection ( I will leave your imaginations to do the rest) and she tries not to let him touch her by moving away , artistically and teases him both for failing to touch her and to tempt him in. So it looks like a cat and mouse sort of thing when danced traditionally

The Colombia is traditionally danced by men only and is more about showing off agility, power and prowess.

I don't know much about blues except it has afro roots and I think call and response too. Hopefully someone knows more.
You are, of course, dead right about Rumba being Cuban in its origins. I saw a lot of it out in Cuba - all of the above in fact - and I particularly love watching Cuban male dancers do Colombia. While I was learning son and salsa out there I saw some amazing demos of it, including one at the famous Tropicano on New Year's Eve when our teachers (part of a national dance company) took to the stage and let rip alongside the stage dancers.

I have never yet had a satisfactory explanation of where the so called 'Blues' dance came from. I have asked several 'Blues teachers' (I use that term reluctantly) but never had a coherent answer. They claim it goes back to Africa and early jazz but my African dance friends think that's hilarious! Partner and close dancing were really frowned upon in Africa in the early days, but their musical rhythms travelled well and so much of the music we dance to today has African roots, including flamenco and AT.

I think Blues was made up by teachers of MJ so that they could add jazz to their playlist and hang on to their students.

I strongly suspect it's a recent addition to the string of commercial 'let's make it dead easy' made up dances like Modern Jive and Ceroc which are not actually dances but variations of the Latin Hustle, adapted for a non dancing crowd to get them out there - but not actual teach any technique or steps - because there aren't any. It's all about turns and not much else. I suppose it does get people moving on a floor.

Many MJ people go on to search out proper Swing or real Jive classes when they realise they are not actually learning anything at all and want to be better dancers.
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Old 15-10-2015, 19:49
David_Robinson1
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Has SCD ever considered including a Jazz category.
I personally can't wait for 'Diversity week'...
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Old 16-10-2015, 13:51
sofakat
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You are right! http://kseniaparkhatskaya.com/portfolio/dance/

She's an amazing Charleston dancer, and has been on the Ukranian (I presume*) version of '... Got Talent'. Maybe SCD bosses should be looking Ksenia's way for their next new pro?

I saw that performance and thought she was incredible. Beautiful style! Best Charleston dance I have ever seen. She is fabulous
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Old 16-10-2015, 15:04
Ellie_
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Careful now, Sofakat - her background is originally in competitive latin and ballroom!
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