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Is Len right to downmark on lack of content? |
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#1 |
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Join Date: Jan 2005
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Is Len right to downmark on lack of content?
One notable example was Georgia getting a lower mark than Jeremy due to lack of Rumba moves.
Would it be right to have an analogy with a maths exam? Student Georgia answers 3 out of the 15 question paper very well but the rest is left blank. Student Jeremy attempts 7 out of the 15 questions with less success but picks up half marks despite his messy workings and achieves a higher mark overall. Who is the better student? Surely the marker has to assume the reason elements on the test were not attempted was the inability to do them. If the professional dancer partner leaves out some moves, the judges have to assume they wouldn't have been able to do them at all and mark accordingly. Karen submitted more moves for judging and Jeremy was able to pick up marks for some attempt at them. |
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#2 |
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Join Date: Apr 2008
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I sometimes feel the scoring should be split
marks for choreography content (pro) marks for how well the celeb performs the dance What Georgia did, she did well BUT there was hardly any rumba in it and THAT is down to Giovanni |
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#3 |
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I was thinking about this in the shower this morning and I concluded that you have to give some marks for content (amount/difficulty) to make sure harder dances done well are rewarded and thus allow a sensible distribution of marks.
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#4 |
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Join Date: Sep 2011
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Quote:
I sometimes feel the scoring should be split
marks for choreography content (pro) marks for how well the celeb performs the dance What Georgia did, she did well BUT there was hardly any rumba in it and THAT is down to Giovanni That said I think it is a case of swings and roundabouts - sometimes it goes with you (Peter and Janette Week 1) and sometimes against (G&G Week 3). |
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#5 |
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Strictly is a team game.
Granted the teams are the smallest possible size (2) but nevertheless both partners share in the triumphs and disasters and for one couple ultimately the victory. |
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#6 |
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Content is very important you can't do one move 'gold winning standard' and then sit down. No one should be penalised for putting in moves the celebrity doesn't quite get perfect, the pros would be constantly stripping down the dances.
Spending more time on fewer moves does presumably mean you will look better to the public voting than the person trying to learn lots of different ones but hasn't had enough time to perfect them. It comes down to whose marks are more important the ones from the public or the judges, votes from the public can change the tables immensely. Jay's was great due to the skill and having the content. |
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#7 |
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Quote:
The judges are not judging the pros so the celebrities should not be marked down on dance content. I think the judges should be able to comment on a pros routine (good or bad) but those thoughts should not be reflected in the mark given.
That said I think it is a case of swings and roundabouts - sometimes it goes with you (Peter and Janette Week 1) and sometimes against (G&G Week 3). If a pro is not including content of the dance being judged, they may have done it for a reason i.e. the celeb is not capable of tackling it so the pro is covering up shortcomings. Why then should they benefit from no attempt at the correct moves? |
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#8 |
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Quote:
The judges are not judging the pros so the celebrities should not be marked down on dance content. I think the judges should be able to comment on a pros routine (good or bad) but those thoughts should not be reflected in the mark given.
That said I think it is a case of swings and roundabouts - sometimes it goes with you (Peter and Janette Week 1) and sometimes against (G&G Week 3). agree they celeb shouldnt be marked down for lack of content, that is down to their professional - hence the 2 score idea |
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#9 |
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Join Date: Aug 2005
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He is marking a specific ballroom or latin dance, so if the dance does not contain the necessary moves, then of course it should be marked down.
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#10 |
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What I find most irritating is the total lack of consistency. The judges were raving over Peter's Cha Cha...when it barely looked like one to me.
The Giovanni thing seemed to me more like a personal issue than a dance one. |
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#11 |
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It has to be part of the equation, I think. In gymnastics or diving or ice skating they take into account the degree of difficulty of a routine, and it's impossible to get a perfect score for something with a low degree of difficulty. In Bake Off - as the lovely Mary often reminds the bakers - you can only get away with a simple bake if what you produce is sublime.
In your example OP, Jeremy attempted lots of 'content', but nothing very difficult. I think he got credit for being a duffer who had improved and who they wanted to encourage, while Georgia was marked down because they think she's capable of the technique, so expectation was part of it. I don't think the celeb should be verbally beaten up for lack of content or poor choreography, but they can't be given points for what wasn't there. |
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#12 |
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It should be consistent. My main issue with Len is that he often seems to let personal bias get in the way and there is no scope to change that. His attack on Giovanni was uncomfortable to watch because it seemed personal - there was nothing constructive or judge-like in it. I know Craig can be ridiculous (Jeremy's 3 for example) but it never feels as vicious as when Len goes off on one, perhaps because it feels more pantomime with CRH.
From a technical PoV the rumba seems to be the dance that varies opinion most out of all the dances with the judges, and that's fine. I don't mind that Len favours a more traditional one and Craig prefers a more contemporary one (personally I prefer the more contemporary one myself) I just wish that when Len didn't like a dance that he would be a bit better at how he worded it. Right now he seems to take it as a personal insult by the pro if they don't give him the rumba or Argentine Tango that he likes. |
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#13 |
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Yes.
But - the producers have been changing the rules over the Strictly era and now they allow things like a 10 second break from hold in the dance without penalty, and the intro and finish seem to be allowed to be an unspecified amount of time. I'd like them to have to do a certain amount of the actual dance - eg you HAVE to do 90 seconds and allow another 30 seconds for whatever start, finish, break will make the dance better. |
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#14 |
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Yes someone has mark down if there isn't enough content.
In one sense, Strictly hasn't enough restrictions on content meaning that everything is always open to interpretation. Content could be assessed separately. Content could be assessed ahead of the live show. Some content could be mandatory. Nothing is going to change though since the scoring system is iconic. |
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#15 |
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Quote:
I disagree.
If a pro is not including content of the dance being judged, they may have done it for a reason i.e. the celeb is not capable of tackling it so the pro is covering up shortcomings. Why then should they benefit from no attempt at the correct moves? Quote:
sorry, disagree - I think the judges ARE judging the pros to a certain extent
agree they celeb shouldnt be marked down for lack of content, that is down to their professional - hence the 2 score idea Then why do the judges speak directly to the celebrities ("you came ahhht", "your thumb was sticking up", "the storm blew in and you didn't survive it", you have to feel the music" etc) with only the odd nod to the pros. Doesn't look like the pros are really being judged to me. The 2 score idea is good improvement - I'm just talking about the way it currently stands... |
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#16 |
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I did like the scoring changes for DWTS' all-star season.
There was a mark for technique, and a mark for performance. .5 points were also allowed, which help further differentiate between quality of performances. |
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#17 |
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Join Date: Jan 2005
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Len just hates arty dances without many steps in them.
Giovanni & Georgia fell victim to it, Anita & Gleb survived. The marks are entered into the keypads the moment the dance finishes (before the judges comment). That episode of head shaking couldn't have any affect on the score number given (unless Giovanni does it every week) but it obviously effected how harsh Len was commenting. Likewise Jeremy wishing for a 4 from Craig can't in anyway change that Craig has entered the score of 3. |
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#18 |
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Quote:
Then why do the judges speak directly to the celebrities ("you came ahhht", "your thumb was sticking up", "the storm blew in and you didn't survive it", you have to feel the music" etc) with only the odd nod to the pros. Doesn't look like the pros are really being judged to me.
The 2 score idea is good improvement - I'm just talking about the way it currently stands... |
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#19 |
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Yes, because you can't get market down for a cha cha if there are no recognisable steps and moves. In any assessment, analysis or exam, you get marked for including relevent information to the subject matter you're being tested on, otherwise why be judged on it if you're going to present something else.
Yes I know strictly is a light beat show about ballroom and Latin dancing, but majority of the pros are still reflecting their industry (even as retired competing professionals) and I'm sure want to promote it (and themselves) to the best of their ability via the routines they create. People like Anton don't have a link to Latin, hence why he can't teach it properly and produce a recognisable routine for it, but most pros on the show will do their best to create a routine that you can recognise as the dance (even if it's not their strongest career discipline) because most of them care whether they are seen as good pros and teachers. If you don't include content, then risk getting marked down, it's not illogical or outrageous for anyone to understand, surely. If you are too lazy to put in content for you celeb, then you shouldn't be reward with the same points as a pro that has tried to teach their celeb the dance. I'm pretty sure Katie will understand Anton was in the fault, she doesn't have to take any responsibility for his Latin shortcomings and I'm sure Anton will try harder next time (as if he doesn't they might not be as lucky with votes in future if he continues to treat her like a Widdy level of dance). It's not difficult for pros to put basics in to a dance (for novice celeb dancers) so no pro should ever really be called out for not having recognisable content. Sometimes the music is an excuse, but most pros will be able to still throw basics in. Of course character, emotion, stylisation and performance of a dance are important, but if you're dancing tap when you should be doing ballet, you can't get marketing on it, even for a good performance. Do the dance (and the signature steps and moves) and then you can look to all the other aspects. Content is like the skeleton or backbone of a dance, if you don't have that you don't have the structure to flesh out all the other aspects. |
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#20 |
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Quote:
sorry, disagree - I think the judges ARE judging the pros to a certain extent
agree they celeb shouldnt be marked down for lack of content, that is down to their professional - hence the 2 score idea One person may attempt 6 moves (for want of a better expression) and execute 4 well, one adequately, and one poorly. To me that deserves more marks than someone who only attempts 3 moves (playing safe) and does them all well. In other words the person who attempted more, but made a visable error we could all spot deserves more than the 'play safe' merchants. |
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#21 |
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I think you have to show you mastered the dance itself before you start improving it. If celebs are in it to learn the dances and not just for PR, they will benefit from basic steps more. Otherwise it's just massaging the pro's ego. Artem was like that in his last year. Shall we do a proper dance? Nah, let's just do more wafting. Theme weeks must be tempting to go for a show at the expense of technique, but unless you do something exceptional they will remind you.
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#22 |
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Its more like 10 questions.
If you answer all ten but to a mediocre (1/2 point) to poor standard (1/4 point) you may get between 4-5. If you only answer 3, even they are perfect, the maximum you can get is a 3. I was like you a few years ago, now I understand it a bit more that he is actually being fair. |
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#23 |
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Join Date: Dec 2008
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Quote:
Precisely.
One person may attempt 6 moves (for want of a better expression) and execute 4 well, one adequately, and one poorly. To me that deserves more marks than someone who only attempts 3 moves (playing safe) and does them all well. In other words the person who attempted more, but made a visable error we could all spot deserves more than the 'play safe' merchants. I agree with this - the judges can only mark what they see, if they only see a few simple, basic moves, repeated over and over like those 'twizzles' Anton made Katie do for 80% of their cha cha, even if it was all done perfectly the judges still couldn't give it 10s. It's like the maths GCSE in my year, where you couldn't get above a B unless you took the top level paper. |
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#24 |
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Join Date: Nov 2007
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I think the content should form part of the overall result - otherwise what's to stop all the pros putting on showdances every week with lifts and spectacle thrown in, in an attempt to win over the public vote.
The reason Jay's jive was so good was because it was packed with content - it was a difficult dance, done really well. I know in the past Anton (in particular) has tailored his routines to his celebs' lack of ability, but there shouldn't be any need for Giovanni to do so with Georgia. The thing I found odd was that all the judges slated Anton for the lack of content in Katie's Cha Cha, but Len was the only one to point out the lack of content in Georgia's Rumba.... |
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#25 |
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Yes, Len is right to down mark in my opinion. Whilst it may seem harsh for the celeb concerned as it is the fault of the Pro, if the lack of content is not taken into consideration, it would be really unfair to all the other contestants who ARE trying to master the steps, groups and variations of their dance.
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