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Is Len right to downmark on lack of content?


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Old 13-10-2015, 13:53
IvanIV
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Wasn't Bruno's critique of the dance and Giovanni's head shaking what set Len off in the first place? Although he probably would have said something similar but maybe he'd be more civil about it.
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Old 13-10-2015, 14:00
Tawn47
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If the professional dancer partner leaves out some moves, the judges have to assume they wouldn't have been able to do them at all and mark accordingly. Karen submitted more moves for judging and Jeremy was able to pick up marks for some attempt at them.
Exactly. Seems to me that the judges are not harsh enough when the content is lacking.
For two main reasons:
a) It's unfair on those who do attempt the proper moves. It's essentially cheating to replace difficult dance steps with posturing or disco/pop moves, no matter how well performed. The pro's do it to disguise the fact their celeb struggled with the technique. I'd mark someone who tried and failed higher than someone who never (at least on the dance floor) tried at all.
b) If the content is lacking, for the reasons above, it encourages other pros to do the same with their dances. You'd be stupid to show up your celebs weaknesses! This would possibly lead to total dilution of the dance styles, where a e.g. salsa and cha-cha are indistinguishable, which would be bad for the show and bad for showcasing those dance styles to the general public.
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Old 13-10-2015, 14:01
trio1
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Lets face it, if there was never any control on content, all the pros would be choreographing routines that were entirely lifts!

It seems to me that some of them try to get away with as little conventional content as possible. I understand that the pros get pretty bored with all the rules during competitions and are dying to do some sexier cooler less conventional stuff.

Remember Gleb and Anitas tango the week before. Gleb said something about it being a tango unlike one people had ever seen. But if I remember correctly some of the judges wanted it to look more like a tango.
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Old 13-10-2015, 14:12
Rhumbatugger
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Of course marks should be lost for lack of content.

The problems with constantly trying to 'change' or 'innovate', all the time are that:

The pros do it to add flash and hide a dancer's weaknesses.

The dances end up NOT looking like 'better' ballroom and Latin, but just 'all the same'.

If they are supposed to be dancing a particular dance, then flamin' DO IT, and if you don't and there's no penalty, what's to stop the pros doing what ever sort of subgenre mashup load of wafty with sassy throws and lifts with poses chucked in, that they flamin' want?

It's already a long way to nearly there though, which irks me rather.
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Old 13-10-2015, 14:36
Firespire
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A person who in a Maths test does very little Maths and then starts drawing pictures of Venice because they think it needs beautifying should receive fewer marks than the person who attempts to do more Maths, next time they will learn to do the Maths they were asked to do.
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Old 13-10-2015, 14:40
Jennifer_F
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Of course marks should be lost for lack of content.

The problems with constantly trying to 'change' or 'innovate', all the time are that:

The pros do it to add flash and hide a dancer's weaknesses.

The dances end up NOT looking like 'better' ballroom and Latin, but just 'all the same'.

If they are supposed to be dancing a particular dance, then flamin' DO IT, and if you don't and there's no penalty, what's to stop the pros doing what ever sort of subgenre mashup load of wafty with sassy throws and lifts with poses chucked in, that they flamin' want?

It's already a long way to nearly there though, which irks me rather.
I fully agree, and for me, all ballroom dances must be in full hold for the entire dance, with the exception of American Smooth.
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Old 13-10-2015, 14:44
kaycee
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Yes, Len is right to down mark in my opinion. Whilst it may seem harsh for the celeb concerned as it is the fault of the Pro, if the lack of content is not taken into consideration, it would be really unfair to all the other contestants who ARE trying to master the steps, groups and variations of their dance.
Hi Jennifer

I couldn't agree more with all you say. If content was not taken into consideration, then anyone could just skip across the floor, play up to the audience and skip off again, to get marked!

I actually think a lot of people might be surprised to know how much more difficult it is to learn (and to teach) authentic steps and technique than it is to do things like back bends, etc.

The best you can say about the routine Giovanni put together for Georgia was that it was inspired by rumba; there were two (2!!!) authentic rumba steps, the rest was (as I've said in another thread) just crowd-pleasing flannel! Plus there was a complete lack of hip movement.
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Old 13-10-2015, 14:51
Jennifer_F
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Hi Jennifer

I couldn't agree more with all you say. If content was not taken into consideration, then anyone could just skip across the floor, play up to the audience and skip off again, to get marked!

I actually think a lot of people might be surprised to know how much more difficult it is to learn (and to teach) authentic steps and technique than it is to do things like back bends, etc.

The best you can say about the routine Giovanni put together for Georgia was that it was inspired by rumba; there were two (2!!!) authentic rumba steps, the rest was (as I've said in another thread) just crowd-pleasing flannel! Plus there was a complete lack of hip movement.
Yes Kaycee, and as you know, the basics in any dance, are anything but,... ie easy....it is very hard to master these basic steps to then make them look easy. They are the foundation of any dance though, and have to be worked at continually,
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Old 13-10-2015, 15:17
guiser
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My take on it is that judges are judging the couples.

To progress, each couple needs to consist of a pro who's a good teacher, who choreographs to showcase the celeb's strengths and pushes them to do the best they can and a celeb who will put in the hours, memorise the routine and learn the finer points of technique and performance.

No, it's not fair on a celeb if they are paired with a pro who won't or can't give them a dance that gives them a chance to shine, but the pro will get their fee regardless and presumably the pro win't be asked back or will be given a duffer next series.

So in the end, it's impossible to separate the two.
Even the best jockey can't win the Grand National on a three legged horse and the best driver can't win the Grand Prix if their car breaks down.
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Old 13-10-2015, 15:52
kittles
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Is Len right to mark down the lack of content and contravening of ballroom rules - yep

does he do it consistently? nope

either do it to all of the couples or none of the couples

don't faff abaht
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Old 13-10-2015, 16:17
Tawn47
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My take on it is that judges are judging the couples.
Absolutely. They both lift the glitter ball trophy at the end.
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Old 13-10-2015, 16:20
RichmondBlue
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Yes, of course content should be taken into consideration. To me, it should be more like skating where (I believe? ) they have a technical mark and another for artistic impression.
In strictly where they are doing different dances, something like the way they mark diving comes to mind. They multiply the score by the degree of difficulty. I'm not suggesting they do that for Strictly, but the difficulty of the content should be recognised..as it probably is if the judges are doing their jobs properly. I think we all want to see the pros pushing the boundaries and not just playing safe.
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Old 13-10-2015, 16:32
marinamau
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Is Len right to mark down the lack of content and contravening of ballroom rules - yep

does he do it consistently? nope

either do it to all of the couples or none of the couples

don't faff abaht
Spot on!
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Old 13-10-2015, 16:38
aggs
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I was thinking about this in the shower this morning and I concluded that you have to give some marks for content (amount/difficulty) to make sure harder dances done well are rewarded and thus allow a sensible distribution of marks.
Or have set steps that they mark for each dance. Of course, that might make the dances a bit too much like what they are supposed to be
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Old 13-10-2015, 16:50
Jennifer_F
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Or have set steps that they mark for each dance. Of course, that might make the dances a bit too much like what they are supposed to be
I was thinking exactly along these lines, like they had on dancing on Ice - the required elements.
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Old 13-10-2015, 16:53
Veri
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Yes, Len is right to penalise lack of content.

Otherwise safe, low-content dances would become the way to win SCD.

Which might even suit the people who think a 10 means no mistakes.
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Old 13-10-2015, 18:28
Fred.
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Agree with ^^^

Why bother having different dances if 'anything goes'?
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Old 13-10-2015, 19:05
Pink Knight
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What is a Rhumba without content ? A woman being dragged about and cocking her leg up.
Len was justified, other dances are probably easier to hide a lack of content.
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Old 13-10-2015, 19:19
MinaH
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Yes - I learn a lot from Len. I quite like the balance of judges. A few times I have occasion to quibble but not too many times.
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Old 13-10-2015, 20:51
daziechain
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Yes he's right to downmark for lack of content but he's sadly inconsistent about it.
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Old 14-10-2015, 00:30
beebopbabsie
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The judges can only mark what they see. Len is a bit of a dance purist, and likes to see proper content. Personally I agree with this. How is a rhumba a rhumba when there's more posturing and posing then there are recognisable rhumba steps. I can't stand dances where there's too many props, posing, messing about and not enough actual dancing. Of course this partly depends on the ability of the contestant but they can only do what their pro gives them to do. However on Saturday Anton 'taking the blame' but really blaming Katie's dance limitations on his lack of dance content (What????) was a disgrace.
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Old 14-10-2015, 00:34
DiamondBetty
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The judges are not judging the pros so the celebrities should not be marked down on dance content. I think the judges should be able to comment on a pros routine (good or bad) but those thoughts should not be reflected in the mark given.

That said I think it is a case of swings and roundabouts - sometimes it goes with you (Peter and Janette Week 1) and sometimes against (G&G Week 3).
But if they only do the easiest of steps, the judges cannot mark them on how they imagine they might have done more complicated steps if the pro had included them.

They can only mark on what they see in 90 secs. If that's a lot of standing about, it has to be a low mark. There is no other way to score it.
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Old 14-10-2015, 18:26
GabeRich
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Strictly is a team game.

Granted the teams are the smallest possible size (2) but nevertheless both partners share in the triumphs and disasters and for one couple ultimately the victory.
I agree with this. It is a team dance not a Pro and a contestant dance. The Pro's know they should be doing all they can to highlight their partners dance skills and so gain scores so to leave out technique or choreography is terrible ... unless they feel their partner is not up to it. We have had dances where the Pro's have obviously realised their partner just isn't going to be to do more than walk around and smile and so technique goes out the window.

So yes, the score should go down if the technique is missing.
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Old 14-10-2015, 19:02
holly berry
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Each dance should be readily recognisable otherwise what's the point in describing in as a VW, AT, whatever? Points should be lost accordingly.
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