Len's own dance experience may have been 'years and years' ago but he was teaching PROFESSIONALS up to the time he retired about 10 years ago.

As for his "judging a bit of ballroom" - seriously? His judging includes the World Championships, and just about every other major competition worldwide you can name. He still judges now, so hardly "yonks ago" or only in the UK.

He is the only judge on that panel that is actually from the world of Latin and Ballroom dancing. The other three are from different dancing backgrounds and have never ever to any degree been classed as Latin and Ballroom dancers. On paper, it is more logical that Len has the casting vote out of the three. Does he sometimes make mistake judgements, imo yes he does, but until they get another judge from the world of latin and ballroom dancing, he is the best option (that is unless people don't mind a former ballet dancing or two more contemporary disciplined dances making the decison instead).

That is so in accurate Len has judged and judges at the highest level and all over the world as for him knowing sod all about other forms of dance is in accurate as well -Lens lectures to professionals were renowned and his instructional videos are still used today he was in at the ground level of Freestyle and was a founder member of the ADFP his school produced many many champions and still does in this style

Completely agree. Ditto Len. Minus the flirting (urgh...)

Was it? I thought it was intended to be an entertainment programme for Saturday evening and not just appeal to the hardcore dance fans. If had gone that way then it would have gone the way of Come Dancing and ended up late at night, probably on BBC3, before being dropped after a few years.

So you don't think that dance can be entertaining? What about the thousands who go to watch ballet, for example, they are not necessarily all hardcore ballet fans, but watch to be entertained.

Come Dancing's problem (after a short run of only 40+ years) was partly the way it was presented, and partly because it was based on amateur dancers.

I thought it was a way to raise money for Sports Relief coupled with a bit of cashing in on the new fad of watching celebs do something out of their comfort zone.

When it comes down to it, the place that matters is the leaderboard, not the actual score as such. If a celeb is bottom of the leaderboard does it matter that they are only a couple of points rather than almost 10 behind the one above them?

Strictly tends to want their remaining celebs to keep taking part - not have to be lured onto the dance floor by their pro with a hobnob. If a less able celeb is getting the lollipop and sticker for coming, but is in the right place on the leaderboard is that so terrible?

No, I do t necessarily think that's a bad thing. But when it means more able celebs are penalised for incorporating more crowd-pleasing moves into their routines, you have to consider the inconsistency among judging.

You're right! It was intended as purely an entertainment show. There is no way it's ever been a Ballroom and Latin 10 dances show - which must be quite galling for the traditional ballroom fans - who are truly devoted to their ballroom and its rules.

It is an entertainment programme and it will never appeal to hard core dance fans - not just the ballroom crowd - but the rest of us who do all kinds of dance. We, in all seriousness, know we'll not see much that will excite and wow us.

It's more about the mix, the daftness, some moments of 'ah' and an awful lot of. 'oh you must be kidding' reactions.

Yes - an entertainment show based on ballroom dancing. The only word Kaycee missed out was 'entertainment', and her use of the word 'proper' indicated that the early shows were focused on celebs learning how to do the ten dances properly by mastering as many of the required elements as possible - which is not quite the case these days.

I can see no indication in her post that she was saying that SCD was aired to appeal to hardcore fans? If that was the case I can't imagine why I was so rapt with the show for the first half dozen series or so.

I fully agree Fuchsia. I don't watch it to enjoy the dancing or to be amazed as its not going to happen on SCD. I regularly see top quality Ballroom and latin on the circuit, and don't expect to see it on SCD. However, what I do enjoy is seeing the improvement a contestant makes and seeing them learn and/ or even attempt to apply correct technique. Couple that with all the qualities that make a good dancer, plus the quality (or not) of movement, softness and elegance, makes the programme watchable for me. Of course its nothing but entertainment based - loosely- on ballroom and latin dances mainly.

Len says he hates bullying, yet he does it himself. He's a hypocrite of the highest order.

Len was once my favourite judge but not for a few years now, Craig is my favourite now, I would like to see Iain Waite on the panel or James Jordan but that;s never going to happen.

You need to push the BBC then and bombard them with your concerns.

Thanks, folks - as the OP I respect lots of these views and I liked the way the discussion kept going off-topic and back again.

I agree that, when the show was conceived, the Beeb could well have had Come Dancing in the back of their memories, and did not foresee exactly how the show would develop.

Craig does mark fairly, within his remit, particularly if you judge the performances against the pros. There is a range of ability among the celebs, although I feel the bar is higher this year - there are no Anne Ws.

And perhaps Louise Rainbow should get over herself (gettit? )

Dave

BBC don't give a shit over fairness, as long as they use their tried and trusted way of doing the show with len being head judge of the show that's all their bothered over.

You could do what I do. Been doing it for a couple of years.

Record Strictly, or watch it on iplayer, then skip all the bits you don't want. I skip intro's, VT's, most of the judges comments, and all of the other silly nonsense. I watch just the pro and celeb dances, and the scores.

It makes Strictly so much better. Really.

It is exactly what I do too, Linda ! Wise minds...

Thousands is nowhere near the eight or nine million watching Strictly Come Dancing.

Come Dancing was in a different era and audiences were steadily dropping in the later years so that it was put on late at night. Most people thought of it as a bit of a joke. The presentation was the style for the time.

I think the money to charity was just a incidental aspect, a number of programmes donated income from telephone voting to charities until the scandal blew up because of the way ITV (mainly) were misusing telephone competitions to make extra profits, the BBC just got caught up in it all.

The first few years voting was more expensive and proceeds went to CIN. Now phone voting is a lot cheaper or free if you vote on line, and is no longer aimed at charity..

Thank you, Fuchsia, that is exactly what I meant.

And you're right, I never suggested the show was aired to appeal to 'hardcore dance fans', in fact the opposite is probably true. When the idea was first discussed, most dancers were pretty scathing and wanted nothing to do with it, certain it would fail at first hurdle. Well, they - we - were off the mark with that, although to be honest, there's plenty of dancers who still wouldn't watch it if you paid them!

My dance teacher refuses to watch or discuss it, kaycee.

I think there is a difficult balance to be made between keeping the show fresh, and diluting/losing the very elements that made it popular in the first place.

Your dance teacher is not alone, Ann. The studio in which I teach has been involved with the show, one of our pros has taken part in the pro dances, and from time to time,we have helped certain pros with routines, so we do tend to have an interest, but it's all a matter of choice.

You are right about it being difficult to keep a balance. I feel one thing that has made it change dramatically is the number of pro dancers who have worked on overseas variations, where attention to technique has been of less importance than producing a 'showy' dance. I understand the need to be 'showy', but still think there should be enough authentic steps to show what the dances should be.