Problem might be she looks like she does a lot of weight training. So ends up with a Russian sportspersons physique.

Okay. I'll do that.

By the way, does the word victuals have any place in today's world?

You mean like Vasily Alekseyev?

I might be as thick as a whale omelette, but wouldn't everyone die of starvation if there were no victuals?

They might but would they die if "victuals" didn't exist as a word?

Leaving this aside, looking back, I didn't really mean that the word feminine has no place in today's world. I was more asking the question - is what is traditionally regarded as femininity (as a quality) so relevant today?

Is that better?

Sorry, I can't answer that. I've just wiped my name from the geneology dictionary. I no longer exist.

I think it's a perfectly good word and idea. Some men can be 'feminine', it doesn't mean homosexual or camp, but neat and dainty and precise, a trifle mannered even. And some women can be a bit 'masculine' - strong, broad shouldered etc etc.

We've just got hung up on some idea that it's either desirable or better, and therefore it is a terrible thing to say that a woman 'isn't feminine'.

She has broad shoulders, looks a bit muscular and the hat did her no favours in the 'pretty' department.

And I speak as a woman who in her prime had the figure of the classic eastern bloc Olympic swimmer - ie I am not classically 'feminine' either.

Gorgeous mind.

I'm so sorry. Goodbye - erm... thingy...

Do you know that throughout this, I haven't actually looked up the word "feminine"? However, I have ideas as to what others perceive this quality as which is why I seized upon it.

I just wondered why it is still so desirable to be thought of as "feminine" if you're a woman and why it may be deemed so terrible if you are not looked upon in this way. Particularly in today's world, where the difference between genders is supposedly less.

I wouldn't discount that possibility.

Are you allowed to have a go at thick people? I'm almost sure it's on the PC list. I might have to report you to the Mods for being thickist.

It's interesting.

I suppose if we just refuse the idea that it's either positive or negative, but just descriptive and apt or not, then we don't get so hung up about it all.

I think, honestly, that when trying to appear feminine and dainty, not achieving that is sort of noticeable, not in a good way. I noticed that Kellie looked strained and sort of muscly and the hat looked bad on her, just a passing thing. And she IS small and neat, so it was a bit incongruous or something. She was badly dressed for her body and what she was trying to project then.

Perhaps the 'idea' of dance includes some ideas about ultra femininity for a woman or something.

I'll think about it.

Totally agree, it's just bitchiness for the sake of it. There's no need for the posts to be so personal.

Haha I'm sure I've broken the rules

Very well said.

I knew I should not have clicked on this thread. But then, the comedy of watching irony-less insults being thrown around without any self awareness, compassion or decency was too much to miss. You gotta love those unsolicited opinions riddled with logical fallacy.

Ad hominems are not opinions or basis for an argument.

Perhaps, 'I find Kellie's dancing lacking in traditional ballroom poise', would be more appropriate?

But then again, it wouldn't. It was a flipping jive! It's not suppose to be 'feminine' (whatever than means). It's a bouncy, frenetic, rough, fun and dirty dance. It came from a time when women were slowly throwing away traditional roles and liberating themselves from the expectations of what 'feminine' was suppose to be.

The dance itself had minor technical issues, but it was great none the less. Loved it.

'Feminine' is just a label that is used to keep women in their place. Its attributes are all about acting in a way that puts a man at ease and positions the female sex as being in need of protection. Ultimately it strips women of power unless they use 'feminine wiles' to manipulate men. It's repressive. It's socially constructed and gets in the way of seeing the whole human being.

Unfortunately many women have internalised all this shit and never question where it has come from.

Check out Simone de Beauvoir's The Second Sex for a more sustained critical evaluation of how women's identities are constructed.

Absolutely. The jive is not a 'feminine' dance. The waltz is 'feminine', as is all the ballroom. The Argentine Tango isn't particularly 'feminine', more slutty than anything else (which is its purpose), and the Charleston is similar to the jive, and also comes from a period when women were tasting 'freedom' for the first time.

But this thread is less about 'femininity' (even though there have been some interesting discussions from others about it) and more another stick wielded by some with which to beat an actress to whom they have taken some irrational dislike.

And it is irrational. Mind, the other thread is even worse, because apparently, Kellie is not allowed to be 'excitable'. This annoys people. Maybe she's supposed to stand there like a robot and accept her scores demurely. Or on ITT sit quietly and nod every now and again.

Because God forbid she be an individual, like everyone else in the world. God forbid she actually be true to who she is.

It is quite amusing, in a weird way, reading these self-absorbed, illogical thoughts from those who seem to be under the impression that the internet, and forums such as these give them carte Blanche to air their ill-formed, unkind 'opinions' on people they don't know, have never met and would never say such things to if they met them face to face. With no seeming awareness of how it makes them come across.

Just because you CAN say something cruel, nasty and completely unfounded about someone doesn't mean you should.

It's utterly appalling behaviour. But, as I have said countless times over the years on this forum, it only reflects back on those indulging in it. And shows them up for just what they are.

I don't think it's a terrible thing to say at all. If someone called me feminine, I might actually deck them. It's an arbitrary concept, but it's usually applied to someone who looks, and is therefore presumed to be dainty. Or by some borderline misogynist trying to define what a woman is 'suppose' to be. It's a lazy concept than can actually be quite offensive in some circumstances. Just as it's could be offensive to call a woman 'butch' as it's often applied when a womans behaviour is perceived as being 'wrong', or a woman is not conforming to traditional gender roles. That said, I embrace the word butch when applied to me.

In my experience, few people conform to 'gender roles'. The ones that do are quite messed up. I don't want a 'masculine' man – whatever that means, I find machismo very off putting. I look rather 'feminine' and have experienced first hand, many times, how others expectations of me shatter when I open my mouth.

Because I am physically and mentally capable, and have many 'masculine' hobbies I have received a many comments. When I was the only woman studying to be an electrician, very few in the class knew what to make of me. I was actually told by my tutor I would have to work harder to be accepted. Some of the guys were cool, but most were very uneasy. Apparently a woman owning a Harley is quite a novelty and her gender identity is worthy of questioning.

I love dances that do not fit the traditional gender roles, and I'd love to see more. I like it when women lift men. I like it when the woman leads and looks strong. More please.

Some interesting stuff here, but I'm still struggling a bit.

Linda - are you saying that it's FINE not being feminine, but that it's NOT FINE that some people say it?

Are you saying that they say this and it's just an attack and has no basis in any reality - it's just misogynistic?

For all -

I find it confusing that 'not being feminine' is fine - yet saying it is always an attack, or should be taken as such.

If 'feminine' and 'masculine' are so emotive, should we ban the terms - say something else so as to avoid them, or should we use them descriptively, and insist that it's the attitudes that surround them that can be problematic - reclaim them?

Excellent point again. It's nice to see someone with a similar view point in this forum. It can get very messy in here and I don't frequent as often as I used to.

Many forums are full of people saying some very dodgy things under the guise of 'it's my opinion'. This one is full of it, and again ad hominems are not opinions or basis for argument. But as you say, a lot of those spouting bile seem to miss the fact that what they are saying, says more about them, than what they are actually saying. The majority certainly wouldn't behave like this face to face. I don't believe the detachment of the internet should absolve people of a bit of basic compassion - or perhaps just a bit of tact. Don't like something? Sure - express it in a structured, logical manner. Otherwise one is just basically vomiting all over the internet.

Debate the merits of the dance, awesome. But cruel character dissections based on nothing but a micro gesture… ey ey ey. I have irrational dislikes all the time, but I know they are irrational and not something I want to display. I certainly wouldn't say something profoundly horrible based on my irrational response to that.

Sadly, on this forum, the women dancers who are not demure are scorned rather harshly.

Very well said. A week or so ago there was a thread about Jay not being handsome, and most of the posts jumped in to comment how physical attributes shouldn't matter (which I agree with), yet here so many posts are commenting how Kellie basically isn't womanly enough to dance well.

Hi Rhumbatugger,

I admit what I said was a confusing way of basically saying I believe it's fine for people to be what they are. Whether they identify as feminine, masculine or none of the above. In an ideal world, people should be free to 'be' without expectations and scorn forced upon them. The continuing peddling of gender stereotypes is a direct battle to notions of nuance and individuality.

My post reflected some personal experience, hence the muddly-ness. In my experience, because I look 'feminine' I have attracted a certain type that very quickly became threatened by my 'masculinity'. I have received many comments about my 'lack of femininity' in what they believed is an attempt to insult and belittle me, and force me to conform to their expectations. The word itself had no force, it was the intention behind it. I was not offended by the words themselves.

Whittled down to a more general point, for me, I am more than pleased to be called 'not feminine' and I would not be insulted. I believe for those of like mind, it's something to be embraced. Though, for those who identify as 'feminine' it could be considered an insult - both are valid viewpoints.

The intention of this thread was to belittle Kellie with 'not feminine' comments. Kellie's personal views regarding the subject matter are unknown. The intention of the post was obvious and is what I responded to.

Thank you for your thoughtful reply Linda.

I think the whole issue is fraught, often with misunderstanding.

'Masculine' is problematic too.

And sometimes a simple acknowlegement of cultural incongruity is seen as something wildly insulting when it's not always meant as such. And sometimes it is, but there is some truth in the observation nontheless.

Further, in dance especially, there is often a powerful mix of both 'masculine' and 'feminine' ideals at play, within each dancer as well as in interactions - dance includes ideas of role and courtship after all.

It's been fun talking to you.

I think maybe it's the fact that she is not overly stuffed and puffed in the breast department . I honestly think there is a slight frisson of 'flat chests are boyish' in modern thinking . I blame all the easily accessed boob jobs that girls seem obsessed with these days . Even tiny little Georgia seems to have had one and it spoils her frame imo . Jamelia also has a large bust area and if you watch her dances back you'll see that it impedes her at times as well as spoiling the fit of her dresses. It has made her under arm turns look messy and laboured and gives her bad upper body framing when in hold .
I don't think it helped that wardrobe had kellie in an outfit that was a cross between Tim Curry in Rocky Horror and Sally Bowles in Cabaret . Topped off with a man's bowler hat and with her long hair tucked up to look shorter it was a very androgynous look in general .
I don't mind Kellie , she's not a moaner, she works hard for sure and the content of that routine was astonishing .