It all goes back to 2005. DW returned a success, and everyone started commissioning 'fantasy'. But DW was never really 'fantasy' as such, it was action/adventure that was pretty accessible. A big like saying Bake Off succeeds mainly as a cookery show, when it's more about it's attitude than it's subject matter imo

Probably because the vast majority of viewers are not obsessively bothered who goes through, and are happy to wait until the broadcast. It's easy to avoid spoilers. Many probably aren't even aware it's not live anyway.

If you're referring to the 4.9m mentioned on ITV Media, that is what they expected for Beowulf, not Wreckyll and Died.

And in fact won Sunday primetime, excluding +1.

Ah, apologies. Somehow confused the two, probably because both have been hyped up in here at the same time.

Still for £14m they haven't got much of a return for their money with a 3.4m start. Even Humans launched better than that for C4, albeit in a later timeslot.

I suppose global sales will be a big and important part of this story, but if I worked for an international broadcaster the first thing I would be doing before considering a purchase is look at how it has performed domestically, in a market where in theory it should do better than anywhere else. And I wouldn't be rushing to buy at this point...

The Apprentice episode 2 goes from 5.58m to 7.22m. Monster timeshift!

But it started 2.5 hours before the watershed - what's going on there?

EDIT: it now reads "may have aired after the watershed".

I don't think viewers consciously think: Oh I won't like that because it's sci-fi or fantasy

They think: Oh, that story looks interesting (or otherwise)

It's why Torchwood: Children of Earth got really strong ratings, even in the depths of summer - the trailer made it look like a great story.

Same with Merlin - a light mix of period drama and folklore, plus a modern allegory about sexuality (and a great lead actor).

Jekyll and Hyde doesn't appeal and won't ever appeal to a broad audience, imo.

They only did I'm a celeb twice in one year and that was in 2004 when Series 3 aired in January and Series 4 in November.

That was the year when the series move from the early era when the show didn't have a fixed position in the year, but tended to be earlier in the year, to the established November slot which it has had since then.

I believe series 3 was the highest rating final ever, when Kerry Katona won, presumably it was snowing or something.

8-10.25 on Sat, 8-9 on Sun.

Me too. Watched the first episode of the last series, then gave up.

Digital TV chart from BARB

1. THE WALKING DEAD/#FIRST TIME AGAIN (MON 2102) FOX 1.68
2 THE FLASH S02 (TUE 2002) Sky 1 1.41
3 KARL PILKINGTON: THE MOANING OF LIFE 2 (TUE 2100) Sky 1 1.34
4 CELEBRITY JUICE (THU 2204) ITV2 1.33
5 ARROW S04 (WED 2001) Sky 1 1.11
6 THE ONLY WAY IS ESSEX (SUN 2205) ITVBe 1.05
7 THE ONLY WAY IS ESSEX (WED 2205) ITVBe 1.00
8 HOLLYOAKS (TUE 1900) E4 0.88
9 MIDSOMER MURDERS (WED 2000) ITV3 0.86
10 HOLLYOAKS (THU 1900) E4 0.84

I'm not sure if these ratings are just for the main channel or include HD and plus 1 variants.

The November series rook a slight dip. Either way they stuck with one series a year. If any show deserves praise for keeping up ratings year after year it's I'm A Celebrity.

This shows you the kind of spin broadcasters put out. Beware of claims of 'higher' and 'more' without qualification.

As for Jekyll & Hyde, it's like Lada suddenly releasing a luxury car to compete with Bentley. No one's going to touch it with a barge pole, no matter how good it is, because Lada is not a brand you go to for luxury cars.

So you're saying that BBC is Bentley and ITV is Lada - that is going to go down well on here !!

Except that misleading tweet came from overnights.TV and not an ITV run account.

Poor start for Jekyll and Hyde. That c3.5m rating suggests to me it wouldn't have rated particularly well anywhere in the schedules. Even in a cushy slot against mediocre competition, based on that figure, it probably wouldn't have launched any more than 4.5m which for a new drama launch wouldn't really be good enough. As I commented yesterday, it looks like the traditional audience who watch successful ITV dramas (females, 55+) didn't tune in for it (especially against the likes of CF and SCD) but also the younger audience which had to tune in disproportionately big numbers to make up for the short-fall in the older audience didn't watch either, resulting in a low figure overall. That younger audience is so difficult to pull in for a brand new show, hence why ITV went down the billboard advertising to increase reach of promotion among light tv viewers and non-ITV viewers, but clearly that didn't work out. I can't see the show rising significantly enough over the next few weeks, in fact I think it will fall as there's not much positive buzz about it, so I think that'll be that for J&H with just one series.

Looking at the new dramas for BBC One and ITV in the last five years, it's clear that anything which sounds fantasy based/male skewing/action-packed/sci-fi/violent has a much tougher time gaining an audience compared to other types of dramas: i.e. Jonathan Strange, Jekyll, Midwinter of the Spirit, The Interceptor, Outcasts, Hunted, The Prisoner etc. And even the lucky dramas of that type that did manage to gain a strong launch audience, they ended up losing viewers fast: Musketeers, Atlantis, Ripper Street etc. So it's a pretty sad state of affairs.

It really doesn't bode well for Beowulf early next year. I actually thought out of the two, J&H would have a better shot of succeeding as it's more well known than Beowulf and looks more family-friendly on paper. Beowulf will instantly be compared, unfavourably, to Game Of Thrones due to similarities and will also have a tougher time scheduling-wise IMO as it'll either be on Saturday nights against The Voice and no support from the rest of the schedule or on Sunday nights against Countryfile/Call The Midwife etc. So I think that's going to be one very high profile ratings flop early next year. Will be interesting to see if ITV just leaves J&H (and also Beowulf when that flops) in the same slot for their entire runs (as they tend to do these days) or reschedule them mid-way, particularly the latter which is 13 episodes long.

^ Great analysis, rzt, as ever.

ITV really is in the pits. Up shit creek without a paddle. Royally screwed.

I'd love to hear your thoughts on how they could possibly turn things around, since practically every area of the broadcast business (certainly when it comes to the main ITV channel) is failing.

Times like this I miss posters like you, PJMillar and Hassaan posting ideas for ITV's scheduling and commissions.

Hits the nail on the head though. Very difficult to feel sorry for ITV's latest woe because they've brought this on themselves. They have constricted their programming to a handful of genres and a chunk of the audience has drifted away and doesn't seem interested in coming back.

1 fantasy drama isn't going to change that. The whole schedule needs drastic surgery and, although it's an unpopular view on here, the amount of soap needs cutting to free up slots for different programming. Yes, financially those slots may become less profitable without them, but this would be a change with potential financial benefits for the longer-term future of the channel as a whole.

I do hope that at least one of them succeeds, because if both of these flop, ITV will be put off commissioing fantasy drama series for life.

It really is quite sad that so many viewrs DO NOT even givie it chance and just stick to Countryfile . CF is nice and all, but they obviously want just dull schedules.

Crime dramas nd period are the only drama types that actually work here in the UK. If the BBC can't get an audience for fantasy without making it so wishy washy (Atlatis and to a lesser extent Merlin) than its really upsetting. I find viewrs nowadays so fickle.

To make sure Beowulf succeeds (if J&H does drop further), ITV then needs to learn from this one and keep this drama back until either Takeaway or BGT starts. Use the big lead in to support the new drama. Do not schedule it up against Skerlock on NYD because viewrs will just stick to BBC1.

Those include HD and exclude +1.

I agree. This year has been particularly terrible. And allowing their soaps to decline to such an extent, that viewrs have left ITV altogether. So many flops this year - its just not good enough.

Fincham said Autumn woud strong. To me it looks like its just flatlined. He's not concered with the ratings. Well, he should be.

The soaps are declining but are still pulling in numbers for the channel. I have no issue with ITV (or BBC) airing soaps - personally I don't watch any of them (unlike the good lady ) but the problem for me is they are on too often outwith their "regular" slots - and if I was a fan I would be getting fed up with them popping up in the schedule.

Merlin is the benchmark and perhaps gains even more kudos having survived 5 long years (and taking the brunt of X Factor into the bargain) and even finished with viewers wanting more. The BBC perhaps thought they could put anything as a fantasy replacement and it would just inherit the same audience. Clearly not, and its a hard and expensive route to go down with the odds stacked against lasting success.

Poor old Simon Cowell. Given a black eye by Peter Andre on Saturday night and a kick up the arse by mild-mannered Matt Baker on Sunday.

I bet he felt more Hide than Jekyll when he checked his email this morning.

All he needs now is for Mary Berry to stick a cream pie in his face and the indignity is complete.

Perhaps the answer to ITV's problems is to commission at least another three Keith Lemon vehicles?