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Longest month of my life
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sebbie3000
10-11-2015
Originally Posted by GDK:
“He enjoys teasing the fans and setting up little mysteries for the fans to debate (as well he should, what with being the show runner an' all). Sometimes they pan out quite well, like the now infamous Doctor's jacket incident. Sometimes he sets things up.... and does nothing with them, like the future Amy and Rory waving across the valley.

The thing is, you can't really tell the red herrings from the real deal until the real deal is revealed. Good fun, though, isn't it? ”

That's a terrible example really - as it was literally just to show that Rory had been properly erased. It was only Amy at the end of the two-parter.
GDK
10-11-2015
How does it show Rory was "properly erased"?

If that was the purpose then it completely failed with me!

I kept expecting that scene to be revisited, only this time shown from the future Amy and Rory's PoV, but it never happened and a little later when Rory was swallowed up in the crack, I never doubted he'd really been erased from time (although that idea in itself is nonsensical).
sebbie3000
11-11-2015
Originally Posted by GDK:
“How does it show Rory was "properly erased"?

If that was the purpose then it completely failed with me!

I kept expecting that scene to be revisited, only this time shown from the future Amy and Rory's PoV, but it never happened and a little later when Rory was swallowed up in the crack, I never doubted he'd really been erased from time (although that idea in itself is nonsensical).”

Obviously it didn't work for you, as he was erased from time. His essence was then added to an Auton, but Rory no longer existed until the Universe reboot.

So: beginning of episode - happy couple in the distance just waving at themselves through time. Stuff happens and Rory gets erased by the crack. End of episode - just Amy waving back at herself through time - we as an audience know the difference; the Doctor knows the difference, but Amy doesn't. It's a signifier to show that Rory has not just died, but been erased - which he most definitely had been.

Compare:
Quote:
“AMY: Why are those people waving at us?
(Two figures on the other side of the valley.)
DOCTOR: Can't be.
(Rory starts to wave back.)
AMY: Don't.
(The Doctor uses a pair of binoculars.)
DOCTOR: It is. It's you two.
RORY: No, we're here. How can we be up there?
DOCTOR: Ten years in your future. Come to relive past glories, I'd imagine. Humans, you're so nostalgic.
AMY: We're still together in ten years?
RORY: No need to sound so surprised.
AMY: Hey, let's go and talk to them. We can say hi to future us. How cool is that?
DOCTOR: Er, no, best not. Really best not. These things get complicated very quickly, and oh look. Big mining thing. Oh, I love a big mining thing. See, way better than Rio. Rio doesn't have a big mining thing.”

With:
Quote:
“(Amy and the Doctor return to the Tardis.)
AMY: You're very quiet. Oh. Hey, look. There I am again. Hello, me.
(A lone figure waves back from the other side of the valley.)
DOCTOR: Are you okay?
AMY: I thought I saw someone else there for a second. I need a holiday. Didn't we talk about Rio?”

Nothing about that needs to be revisited, it was all there on the screen, explaining itself neatly.
nebogipfel
11-11-2015
Let me get this straight. If the Doctor literally meant he's spent a month thinking she was dead then is it something like.... (massive speculation ahead) ....

In Face The Raven we're going to see a Doctor that is younger than that in Magician's Apprentice and all the stories so far, have an adventure with a Clara who is as she is seen to be in the timeline we've followed - all the stories so far in the sequence we've seen them, the younger Doctor realises that he's with an older Clara who has had adventures with him that he's yet to experience. Like he does with River Song all the time. Clara dies and at that point the Doctor realises he's going to have to meet Clara a few more times even though she's dead. And that he probably shouldn't tell her that he knows she dies.

Basically, Clara dies then there's about a week of hiding from Colony Sarf, his visit to Karn, writing his confession dial and all that, then he spends three weeks with Bors in the castle (think Bors said it was three weeks). Then younger Clara pops up. Doctor plays Pretty Woman to her. That's the month referred to in TZI.

???

Or it was just a figure of speech.

Or it was just a dramatic device to indicate the Doctor is sensing pending doom, rather than having literally already experienced the doom.

I'm going with my guess - because it's a reworking of the whole idea of River Song and Moffat recycles.
nebogipfel
11-11-2015
I'm one of the people who immediately saw there was something funny about the Doctor and his jacket scene in the series 5 Angels story (and it wasn't just his jacket that gave the game away). I thought it obviously deliberate even though I didn't know exactly what it meant (other than possible future Doctor).

I am not, however, someone who thinks you have to take every line and pull it to pieces looking for clues about unlikely, imaginary, arc plots. For example, I didn't have any truck with all the "It's Omega!" noise surrounding series 5 and I don't think I've ever once thought that anybody is actually The Rani in disguise. Or that Amy's staircase was interesting.*

Most of these things pass me by. But I think the "month" thing might be quite literal. Feel free to come and laugh when I'm wrong. Point while laughing, if you like.

* ETA: Rory's hospital pass! Anyone remember the fuss about the date on Rory's pass? Now that clearly was a production error. But it didn't stop people saying with some force that there is ZERO chance of Cardiff making such an obvious error and it DEFINITELY must mean something!
GDK
11-11-2015
Originally Posted by sebbie3000:
“Obviously it didn't work for you, as he was erased from time. His essence was then added to an Auton, but Rory no longer existed until the Universe reboot.

So: beginning of episode - happy couple in the distance just waving at themselves through time. Stuff happens and Rory gets erased by the crack. End of episode - just Amy waving back at herself through time - we as an audience know the difference; the Doctor knows the difference, but Amy doesn't. It's a signifier to show that Rory has not just died, but been erased - which he most definitely had been.”

NP. You know, I don't recall the "Amy on her own waving across the valley" bit! Probably too busy complaining about a lack of a payoff to notice it was a payoff! I'll have to re-watch again.

I was expecting some other payoff and, while I can see your explanation for why the scenes existed at all, they weren't necessary for me to believe he really had been erased. IIRC, much else had already happened in the story to show this was really happening.

But, you're right. I did pick a terrible example.
johnnysaucepn
11-11-2015
Perhaps the Doctor was alluding to the time between the alternate Clara's death in The Snowmen and him finding her again in The Bells of Saint John. Effectively he's watched her die before, and it took him a while to get her back.

Or perhaps it's just a perfectly ordinary throwaway line to indicate how much the Doctor dreads her death.
The_Bonobo
11-11-2015
Originally Posted by nebogipfel:
“Let me get this straight. If the Doctor literally meant he's spent a month thinking she was dead then is it something like.... (massive speculation ahead) ....

In Face The Raven we're going to see a Doctor that is younger than that in Magician's Apprentice and all the stories so far, have an adventure with a Clara who is as she is seen to be in the timeline we've followed - all the stories so far in the sequence we've seen them, the younger Doctor realises that he's with an older Clara who has had adventures with him that he's yet to experience. Like he does with River Song all the time. Clara dies and at that point the Doctor realises he's going to have to meet Clara a few more times even though she's dead. And that he probably shouldn't tell her that he knows she dies.

Basically, Clara dies then there's about a week of hiding from Colony Sarf, his visit to Karn, writing his confession dial and all that, then he spends three weeks with Bors in the castle (think Bors said it was three weeks). Then younger Clara pops up. Doctor plays Pretty Woman to her. That's the month referred to in TZI.

???

Or it was just a figure of speech.

Or it was just a dramatic device to indicate the Doctor is sensing pending doom, rather than having literally already experienced the doom.

I'm going with my guess - because it's a reworking of the whole idea of River Song and Moffat recycles. ”

What you are describing is pretty much what is being speculated. The other obvious option being that it is just about how it feels to him rather than literal. I am leaning again towards thinking there is at least something literal to it and what you have above seems a clear way to do that. There are two problems, however. One is that it could be rather confusing for many viewers, especially younger ones. Also it does sound quite similar to River's situation (although she is back soon so maybe the similarity would be acknowledged). I suppose it may come down to how likely it is that Moff would write something potentially bamboozling for much of the audience and a bit repetitive of his other ideas. As much as I really like his writing (and him as show-runner) it is not exactly beyond possibility that he would do both these things.
Corwin
11-11-2015
Originally Posted by nebogipfel:
“Let me get this straight. If the Doctor literally meant he's spent a month thinking she was dead then is it something like.... (massive speculation ahead) ....

In Face The Raven we're going to see a Doctor that is younger than that in Magician's Apprentice and all the stories so far,”


Looking at pics from Face the Raven the Doctor is back wearing the plain white shirt which I don't think we've seen this series (could be wrong).


Might be nothing but could indicate that it's a slightly younger Doctor.
nebogipfel
11-11-2015
Originally Posted by The_Bonobo:
“Also it does sound quite similar to River's situation (although she is back soon so maybe the similarity would be acknowledged).”

Typical Clara. First she behaves as if she's The Doctor, then she behaves as if she's River Song! She's already had a go at being a Dalek.
nebogipfel
11-11-2015
Originally Posted by Corwin:
“Looking at pics from Face the Raven the Doctor is back wearing the plain white shirt which I don't think we've seen this series (could be wrong).


Might be nothing but could indicate that it's a slightly younger Doctor.”

Yep - he's been scruffy so far. That does it for me - the white shirt indicates pre-TMA Doctor. The month is the time spent with Bors plus a bit.

Not normally one to try and guess the arc or follow speculations, but I'd be surprised if it's much different.

Not that it spoils anything for me. As long as the story is good. There's still plenty of detail to fill in and unexpected twists.
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