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Eastenders - She happy and everyone else has to suffer!


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Old 11-11-2015, 00:43
Harlowe
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''She happy being the bride to be and everyone else has to suffer''

Shirley's comment about Linda, does this pretty much sum up that she will never believe her or let go of that resentment, as far as she concern Linda is the problem, stopping her seeing her grandson, her son, you know cause Linda being raped is nothing compared to the poor suffering Shirley going through, pass the sick bag!
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Old 11-11-2015, 04:15
B*witched
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Sounds like typical Shirley, always makes everything about herself.
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Old 11-11-2015, 06:28
thejoyof_pat
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It'll be interesting to see her when it all comes out, knowing dean though he'll blame Shirley for everything.
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Old 11-11-2015, 06:52
Scrabbler
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This is what annoys me, Shirley and Mick fell out over Dean so surely they would have discussed the situation before they reconnected at the seaside?

It was conveniently forgotten about but that's changes now Dean is leaving.
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Old 11-11-2015, 06:57
wizardt
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It's nothing new. It's typical Shirley. Can't wait for her comeuppance soon when she finds out about Dean. She was also angry with Mick last night for putting others first. Shirley still expects Mick to defy or deceive Linda when it comes to putting Shirley first. She needs to grow up and understand that Mick will always "choose" Linda.
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Old 11-11-2015, 07:17
kitkat1971
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I wish Mick would always choose Linda because he hasn't been where Shirley is concerned. By having a relationship with her, he is, whether he means to or nor, condoning her attitude to Linda. And her attitude remains that Linda lied about the rape and is vindictively causing problems for her son(s).

It is a huge betrayal and one i wouldn't be able to forgive if I were Linda.
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Old 11-11-2015, 08:09
Ell_Ren
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I don't see why Mick should have to choose. Shirley is his mother and it is natural for him to want to build a relationship. At the end of the day Shirley didn't rape Linda, Dean did, and since the dust has settled, she hasn't said anything to Linda or had any confrontations for months, even telling Mick that it's ok for her to not attend the wedding because it's 'Linda's day' and not going to the Vic.

I think Shirley just wants everyone to get along, but we know that can't happen, and so does she, but I can understand how it would feel to be ostracised from your family, even if it is because of your decision that it happened. You have to remember that at this moment, Shirley is stuck in a catch 22, they are both her children and she believes in Dean's innocence (even Linda understood this and said that she and Mick would defend Lee if he was in Dean's position.)

I get the feeling that Dean is emotionally manipulating her with the guilt she feels for leaving him as a child, she feels she owes him and is drawn to defend him because of that. I do look forward to when Shirley finds out the truth, I would like to see Linda/Shirley build a relationship. It will be interesting to see Shirley's reaction when she finally knows 100% the truth, very interesting.
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Old 11-11-2015, 09:00
Lizzie Brookes
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I don't see why Mick should have to choose. Shirley is his mother and it is natural for him to want to build a relationship. At the end of the day Shirley didn't rape Linda, Dean did, and since the dust has settled, she hasn't said anything to Linda or had any confrontations for months, even telling Mick that it's ok for her to not attend the wedding because it's 'Linda's day' and not going to the Vic.

I think Shirley just wants everyone to get along, but we know that can't happen, and so does she, but I can understand how it would feel to be ostracised from your family, even if it is because of your decision that it happened. You have to remember that at this moment, Shirley is stuck in a catch 22, they are both her children and she believes in Dean's innocence (even Linda understood this and said that she and Mick would defend Lee if he was in Dean's position.)
.
I agree.
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Old 11-11-2015, 11:04
wizardt
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I hope Shirley apologises to Linda for the grief and abuse she gave to Linda. Shirley probably knows deep down that Dean raped Linda but she's in denial. Remember that scene with Mick a few weeks ago?
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Old 11-11-2015, 11:20
Ell_Ren
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I'm looking forward to the Linda and Shirley scene once Shirley knows the truth 100% I think partially that Dean is manipulating Shirley's guilt around leaving him as a child to keep her on side.
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Old 11-11-2015, 11:27
vald
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Of course she still believes that Linda is a liar, and so do most of the square. There's only a small handful that believe Linda was raped. Shirley has more to say because she's emotionally involved, but it's the sad truth that, without proof, Linda will be seen as the baddie here...a woman who tried to ruin a young man's life to cover up a fling.
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Old 11-11-2015, 11:41
LHolmes
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It makes no difference whether she knows or doesn't*. It is not easy to turn your back on your own child and Shirley still feels an incredible amount of guilt over the first time she did that. If she did know she wouldn't just wash her hands of him.

* - at this point anyway, earlier on in the storyline when she was going off on one about Linda it would look bad but she definitely didn't know at that point and I think even now knows nothing for certain. Shirley wants Mick back in her life but she also doesn't want to let Dean down again. It's a tricky situation.

Linda told Mick that she was fine with him seeing Shirley. The only thing he is doing wrong is keeping it from her and taking Ollie to see her.
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Old 11-11-2015, 11:58
Ell_Ren
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Great posts, vald and LHolmes. Completely agree.
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Old 11-11-2015, 12:09
noodkleopatra
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Have any of you ever been in the position where your son has been accused of rape? Let alone, one son against the wife of another? Inevitably, you're going to assume their innocence - especially if you feel responsible for your son being a bit screwed up. I don't think that makes Shirley selfish. You may not agree with her, but that's because you've got omniscient knowledge that Dean did rape Linda.
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Old 11-11-2015, 12:25
Aurora13
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Have any of you ever been in the position where your son has been accused of rape? Let alone, one son against the wife of another? Inevitably, you're going to assume their innocence - especially if you feel responsible for your son being a bit screwed up. I don't think that makes Shirley selfish. You may not agree with her, but that's because you've got omniscient knowledge that Dean did rape Linda.
It's that omniscient knowledge that has blighted this storyline. Folks have immediately hooked onto Linda being raped and have just been unable to view it from all other characters (ex. Dean/Linda) viewpoints. As soon as Dean has entered tv screen it's boo hiss get him off. A very real situation that the rape charities wanted highlighting has been poorly served. The producers / writers misunderstood the mindset of many viewers. I suspect rape charities didn't want Linda saying it was rape but viewers not knowing as they saw it as detrimental to women. Hindsight is telling us that the only way to get viewers to understand the mindsets of the characters is to put viewers in same position.
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Old 11-11-2015, 12:32
Ell_Ren
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Have any of you ever been in the position where your son has been accused of rape? Let alone, one son against the wife of another? Inevitably, you're going to assume their innocence - especially if you feel responsible for your son being a bit screwed up. I don't think that makes Shirley selfish. You may not agree with her, but that's because you've got omniscient knowledge that Dean did rape Linda.
Absolutely. You have summed this up perfectly.
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Old 11-11-2015, 12:46
sorcha_healy27
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It's all very well saying shirley has the right to support her son. Yes it's right she does. However she has 2 sons. She also has no right to imply that Linda is self involved.
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Old 11-11-2015, 12:51
bass55
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I just don't find it in any way believable that Mick would want to reconcile with Shirley when she is 1. still living with Dean, and, 2. she still believes that Linda is lying about the rape. The very reason Mick and Shirley stopped talking was because of her support for Dean. Let's not forget that Shirley also led a campaign of terror against Linda for months. She wasn't exactly impartial, so all this stuff about her being 'torn between her sons' is nonsense.

As kitkat said, Mick wanting to have any kind of relationship with Shirley while she is still taking Dean's side is effectively condoning the way she has treated Linda. It's awful. Once again Shirley's behaviour has been totally brushed under the carpet, and once again, Linda's feelings aren't even taken into account.
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Old 11-11-2015, 12:54
Harlowe
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She sees Linda as the problem that is putting a stopper on everything, regardless if she supports Dean, her own atrocious behaviour has been vile towards Linda and her attitude has not changed one bit, she feels she being made to suffer because of Linda and that is not just down to because she thinks Linda is a liar but because she jealous, jealous that Linda has everything she wants, she even made a dig at Elaine having her feet under the table.

If Dean is to meet a watery end, I have a feeling her attitude towards Linda will only get worse before it will ever get better as she will want someone to blame.
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Old 11-11-2015, 13:08
vald
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It's that omniscient knowledge that has blighted this storyline. Folks have immediately hooked onto Linda being raped and have just been unable to view it from all other characters (ex. Dean/Linda) viewpoints. As soon as Dean has entered tv screen it's boo hiss get him off. A very real situation that the rape charities wanted highlighting has been poorly served. The producers / writers misunderstood the mindset of many viewers. I suspect rape charities didn't want Linda saying it was rape but viewers not knowing as they saw it as detrimental to women. Hindsight is telling us that the only way to get viewers to understand the mindsets of the characters is to put viewers in same position.
Good post. And yes, they should have left the viewer wondering.

It's sad that such an important subject has been reduced to just another stick to beat Shirley with. They had to have someone disbelieve Linda and call her out/voice their disgust. I'm just glad they had Linda's immediate family believe her and that the core Carters were left as a strong unit. We know in reality that this isn't always the case.
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Old 11-11-2015, 13:13
wizardt
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I understand that some Shirley fans want to defend her and that's fine but why can't they accept her flaws? For example, Sharon was awful for what she did to Max and i hope she pays for that. But Shirley is a "Saint". There is nothing wrong with her having flaws.
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Old 11-11-2015, 13:15
bass55
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It's sad that such an important subject has been reduced to just another stick to beat Shirley with.
No, people are just voicing their criticisms of Shirley and the objectionable way she has behaved in this storyline.
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Old 11-11-2015, 13:37
kitkat1971
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Have any of you ever been in the position where your son has been accused of rape? Let alone, one son against the wife of another? Inevitably, you're going to assume their innocence - especially if you feel responsible for your son being a bit screwed up. I don't think that makes Shirley selfish. You may not agree with her, but that's because you've got omniscient knowledge that Dean did rape Linda.
Of course people understand the position she is in. No mother wants to believe their son capable of rape and will probably support and defend them - especially if they have the residual guilt of abandoning them when young.

I sympathize with Shirley for that.

But the problem is, her belief of Dean means she must by default believe that Linda is lying about rape to cover up for infidelity. Whether she is shouting it from the rooftops or not, that is what she believes. And if it isn't what she believes then she knows she is defending a rapist.

So, she is putting Mick in a horrible position.

Like it or not, it is a choice. Mick is choosing to still have a relationship with a woman who believes his wife to be capable of infidelity and then crying rape - both dreadful things. It is a betrayal of the trust within their relationship. Mick should be shouting Linda's truth from the rooftops - continuing to spend time with the mother that supports the 'other side' sends a message out to other people - clearly he can't believe dean really raped her or he wouldn't be visiting his home and still so friendly with his supporters.

He on his own might be forgivable - he is an adult capable of making his own decisions and he can talk it through with Linda - at least he could if he wasn't choosing to keep it secret from her which is another betrayal.

But to be sneaking Oliver out is beyond the pale. That is Linda's child too and she has a right to say who she does and desn'( want him to spend time with.

Sadly in life, there are sometimes situations where battle lines have to be drawn, sides chosen and support made obvious - to the people involved and to people on the outside looking in. This is one of those times.

People either believe Dean or they believe Linda and there really is not middle ground. Shirley and Denise believe Dean have made that support obvious. Mick believes Linda and should be making that support equally obvious - even if it does unfortunately include severing contact with Shirley.

I don't actually care that Linda has been magnanimous enough to try and rise above it. She has done it because she loves Mick and she's being thanked by him sneaking around and having her baby sneaked away too.
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Old 11-11-2015, 13:37
vald
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No, people are just voicing their criticisms of Shirley and the objectionable way she has behaved in this storyline.
IMO too much focus has been given to Shirley's reaction (on here) and not enough on the difficulty that rape victims face. We've seen Linda struggling with intimacy, talking about how she feels permanently broken etc. And yet I've not seen any discussion about this. We've seen Mick's frustration at Dean strutting around having a normal life and yet all people talk about is 'will he kill him', 'when will Dean die'. Again IMO they have failed to get the intended message across...that rape victims very rarely get justice, nor does the rapist conveniently die or move away.

Sure Shirley deserves flack for her behaviour, no argument from me. I just think it's a shame that other aspects are not discussed.
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Old 11-11-2015, 13:40
wizardt
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I don't think it's true that most of the residents don't believe Linda. Lots of people believe Linda and the only people who thinks Linda are lying are Shirley, Buster, Roxy and Ian.
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