I'd be interested to know what everyone's thoughts are on rubber-suited monsters. Personally I can't stand them. I think they make the show look cheap and tacky but I can't decide if that's just me or not? Because oddly I think the Daleks and Cybermen look fine.

Classic Who was of it's age so I've got no problem with the rubber-suited monsters appearing in the older episodes but I despair every time that I see them in NuWho, from the Slitheen to the more recent Zygons and Sandmen, they just look terrible to me. I just can't get past the fact that it's very obviously just a person running around in a rubber suit and it takes me out of whatever world they are trying to create.

It's a real shame, because some of the effects in Doctor Who have blown me away in the past and some of the monsters look decent to me, mainly ones like the Silurian's, Sycorax, Racnoss etc which use prosthetics but steer clear of a full rubber outfit. Some of the CGI monsters look great too, such as the 2-D creatures from Flatline, or the spiders in Kill the Moon last series.

I couldn't help thinking how much better the Sandmen would have looked if they'd been realised in CGI instead of those terrible, terrible costumes, at least then the episode would have had one thing going for it to try and hide the shonky writing. I guess it's a budget issue and it's much cheaper to make some rubber costumes and hire some actors than using CGI?

Maybe it's me? Maybe I've been watching too much Game of Thrones and Walking Dead and expect too much from a BBC produced show but I hate seeing cheap effects on Doctor Who because one of the main reasons it became a bit of a joke in the 1980's was because of the naff effects so I worry every time I see them that it's going to revert back to that.

I do understand what you're saying. Even the much-vaunted Fisher King was obviously just a man in a costume.
From a science fiction point of view, there is some justification for this, as the way that the human form has evolved is extremely practical for getting around and interacting with inanimate objects, so it's perfectly reasonable to assume that evolution on other planets, certainly those with similar environments to Earth, would probably evolve the same way, hence creatures walking upright on two legs and with two arms with hands at the ends with opposable thumbs!
The problem is with the realisation. It would be very boring if all depicted aliens were just like humans, and we've seen countless examples of them of course, but trying to make it a bit different by putting humans in costumes is also difficult intrinsically to make convincing.
As always, the best monsters are those that you don't ever see at all!

I don't think it's even the form that bothers me so much as the actual material itself. I just can't stretch my imagination far enough to convince myself that it's an alien when I can easily tell what material it's made out of. Or maybe it's the lighting or direction. I'm not sure?

I remember at one point Doctor 10 even described the Zygons as rubbery monsters in the 50th anniversary! And I just thought oh are they not even going to try and pretend that they're something other than what they're made from?

Also it definitely feels like there's been more rubber-suited monsters this series than usual. Which is a shame, because for me at least, it spoils all the rather expensive looking location filming etc.

It doesn't bother me. It is all about the story they are in.

I dont care if a plastic dustbin burps, I dont care if blobs of fat fall off people and turn into cute little aliens. I dont care if the monster is a shadow or a guy in a Slitheen suit.

It's all about the story, how it is written and structured and how believable the characters are. If that all works, if it is exciting, funny, smart or dumb, the monster could be a wooden spoon with a face painted on it as far as I'm concerned.

I dont want a poorly written story where the baddie shows up, stands about and does nothing whilst he is defeated. Twice that has happened this series The Fisher King from the 'Flood' and Lenny the Lion from 'The Girl/Woman who'

It's probably that you don't like looking at naked monsters.

I have no problem with them as I can suspend my disbelief.
Plus the Zygons are probably one of the best designed (Jim Acheson later won an Oscar for costume design) monsters the series has ever had.

Men in rubber suits are not convincing enough for an audience that nowadays is used to the very best CGI characters from movies and some other TV shows.

Zygons in particular aren't convincing at all. Strangely immobile bodies (no flexibility) and heads looking like what they are - human faces poking through a face-shaped hole in the costume.

Maybe they just don't have the budget for realistic CGI monsters. Mind you, when they have attempted CGI monsters, like with the flying cybermen in Death in Heaven, the results were awful too. I was surprised they allowed that one through, it was that bad.

While this isn't really the place for this discussion - in the first case, the King's machinations drove the whole plot, regardless of whether we only saw him briefly near the end, and the second was a classic case of not knowing whether someone is a villain or not until they betray the heroes.

Have no problem with rubber monsters in Who. What I'm used to! And CGI can often feel rather cold and cartoony. But yeah, it's down to cost, I'm sure. Who could only afford a few shots of CGI Slitheen back in the day, and it just jarred, I thought. Of course when CGI is done well (the Beast in Satan Pit springs to mind) it's impressive, I'm not a complete luddite!, but Doctor Who and people in rubber suits....fine with me, anyway. Mind, a good design and clever lighting and direction are then essential to avoid too many 'Myrka moments'!

You can't compare the Zygons to such poor costumes as the Slitheen or the Absorbaloff they were really awful. The modern Zygons look pretty good to me.

I think different issues arise with the use of rubber costumes. In the case of the Slitheen, the issue was clearly budgetary. The transitions between rubber and CGI were poor and jarring, but equally the rubber suits were so cumbersome and lumbering that it removed the sense of menace - again not helped by the CGI which depicted them as anything but cumbersome. Their crossover into The Sarah Jane Adventures highlighted more issues for them - less effort had clearly been made with costume design below the waist, as that's seldom in shot. But when you can see the feet of the costume flapping about because the actual foot is inside the costume, it takes you out of the drama because it's so visibly stunted. They clearly do the best they can, and I feel with the Zygons, as an example they actually worked to keep them out of shot much of the time - a heartfelt and remarkable scene like the Doctor's anti-war speech wasn't hindered by shots of costumes that will date, and with few exceptions all shots of the Zygons remain above the waist to hide the weaker aspects of the costume. They've done a great job with the costumes - the best they can do I suspect - but equally the Zygon costumes lack a range of expression, they are still somewhat cumbersome and the design is somewhat restricted to the designs of the 1970's.

I still think the best design they've had for humanoid, 'rubber costume' aliens is the Sontarans - and that may be down to the fact that they aren't a wildly different colour to humans, they're inside a suit as well (the 'naked alien' think doesn't bother me, but at the same time it makes things more obvious) and they aren't overly cumbersome and huge... that may be very telling.

Fundamentally though it is all down to story. I really enjoy SJA's The Lost Boy in spite of the Slitheen design, The Zygon Invasion/Inversion was a terrific two-parter in spite of the costume limitations, and the actual plot for Aliens of London/World War Three was infinitely better than the farting gags and awkward CG transitions that were part of it too.

A little bit OT but personally I find The Walking Dead zombies shit.

I wanted to add that I think the most successful "monster" lately was the mummy itself in Mummy on the Orient Express. An excellent performance in a really good, tense story.

I'm sorry but they really do remind me of that type of advertising costume where they have people walking about in the street or at major events dressed as bananas or yoghurt cartons or whatever with their limbs and head sticking out. The Zygon costumes are better executed of course, but they remain unconvincing to me.

I agree that the story is key but just thinking of two examples off the top of my head for me the worst thing about the Zygon two parter were the Zygon's themselves. I liked the story and it looked like a lavish production, with lots of location filming etc and then there were a bunch of blokes stomping around in rubber costumes that rather spoilt it. Easily the best part of that story were the scenes with the Doctor, Bonnie and Kate and the Zygons were relegated to background extras.

On the other side of the coin I couldn't get into 'Sleep No More' at all. I thought it was a strange concept, poorly executed and incredibly dull but at least if the Sandmen had been realised more convincingly I would have something positive to take from the episode (which is how I view the spiders from 'Kill The Moon') but alas there was nothing.

Yes I agree. I also think that Davros has been perfectly realised both in classic and NuWho (with the exception of Destiny of the Daleks when they couldn't be bothered to get a custom to fit the new actor). It's just unfortunate that sometimes they seem to get it spot on and then other times I cringe while I watch some rubbery thing stomping around, speaking very slowly, and flapping it's great big rubbery arms around and I'm somehow supposed to be scared by it.

It would be interesting to hear what the naysayers think about the alien in 'ALIEN', which of course we all know was essentially a man in a rubber suit?

Your logic here is pretty awry. The human form is very practical for humans living on a small area of the Earth... but it is suitable for inhabiting much less than 50% of the planet Earth. We have barely explored the oceans for example and certainly cannot dwell there. Nor the forests, the deserts, the entire continent of Antarctica... if it is of such limited suitability here on Earth why do you imagine a bipedal form would be of such universal predominance? Even here on Earth we are not within the top 1,000,000 most successfully adapted species in terms of global reach and longevity.

We know the reasons all of these races are humanoid of course: associability, narrative convenience, practical constraints, and we accept it and suspend our disbelief accordingly. But from the standpoint of 'pure' science-fiction it's total nonsense. Even the idea of Earth-born / evolved humans inhabiting other planets without being severely changed by evolution is absurd.

For me personally it's all about the presentation of how monsters look that are important, though as with special effects, if you have a really good story you can overlook such things.

For example, Scaroth from City Of Death for me is so convincing even though it's clear it's just an actor in a funny green mask, but the character, the voice, the way the Jagaroth as a race are presented. Okay, not a rubber costume but you(hopefully)see my point. Compare that to The Myrka, some of the creatures from The Web Planet and the one thing that really mars The Ark In Space, the blobby green creature who so obviously was a man inside it was unreal! They just weren't presented right but on the flip side, you have to take into context the time they were made in. That sometimes cannot be an excuse, the Myrka would have been awful for any era of the show!

New Who can be just as bad. The Adipose were quite simply the most stupid creatures every created and though they weren't men in a rubber costume, you failed to take them seriously because of the way they were created.

Non humanoid creatures can be awful too. The Mara snake from Kinda for example.

So for me, if you present it right, it'll work. No matter whether it's Classic or New Who.

The Abzorbaloff looked like something a 9 year kid would dream up.

The designer of the Slitheen had no such excuse.

I liked the adipose myself. Went to show that not every alien out there was slimy/villainous/monster-like, and some of them could be seen as even cute for once. In the whole wide universe, it's great there's at least one species that doesn't try to take itself too seriously

Pretty much spot on Davey Boy.

Great name for a band though.

I remember reading that the young kid who designed it, originally had designed it to be at least as big as a double decker bus. Now that would have been interesting.

Having recently rewatched 'Terror of the Zygons', I thought the rubber suits were much more effective in that than they were in the two recent episodes.

Not only off topic but a strange opinion that I definitely disagree with. The work done is amazing and the effects are very impressive.