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Adele – as big if not bigger than Elvis, The Beatles and MJ?
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mickmars
28-11-2015
She has one less UK Number 1 single,than Jive Bunny
konebyvax
28-11-2015
Incorrect info deleted
Soupietwist
28-11-2015
Originally Posted by SummerHeart:
“You don't sell 30 million copies of an album while only appealing to one group of people. Adele is the biggest thing that's happened in the music business for a long, long time.”

One of Shania Twains albums sold 40 million alone. I'm pretty sure she has a fairly limited target demographic. In fact Shania has sold 82 million over the course of her last 3 albums, and no one in their right minds compares her to the Beatles etc....(although if this forum did exist back then I'm sure Konebyvax/Shadesofblack would be telling us she was via stats about updated album sales).
konebyvax
28-11-2015
Originally Posted by Soupietwist:
“One of Shania Twains albums sold 40 million alone. I'm pretty sure she has a fairly limited target demographic. In fact Shania has sold 82 million over the course of her last 3 albums, and no one in their right minds compares her to the Beatles etc....(although if this forum did exist back then I'm sure Konebyvax/Shadesofblack would be telling us she was via stats about updated album sales). ”

At a time when it was far easier to sell albums. But Shania Twain, big seller that she was, never dominated the industry in the way Adele did with '21' and now with '25'. Plus Shania just stopped making albums abruptly and we don't know if Adele will do that. '25' has outsold the #2 album in the US this week by well over 3 million copies! And I have never claimed she will be as big as the 3 acts mentioned in the OP looking back in the future (no-one can say that because we don't know what will happen yet) but I stick by my belief that, at this moment in time and indeed since 2011, she's as big as all of them.

The naysayers have the benefit of hindsight when looking at MJ, Elvis and The Beatles and the rest is conjecture, in some cases sadly based on personal preference/prejudice.
my name is joe
28-11-2015
some of the posts about demographics are interesting, but i'm never sure what demographics can tell us. If your demographic is the general public as it is with Adele what conclusion can you draw?
With small artists we can often say who buys what, someone like Courtney Barnett is probably selling exclusively to students. Taylor Swift & 1D teen and pre-teen females, The Smiths were the kings of adolescents...and so on. The point about Shania Twain was interesting but that's a genre thing going on there, i'm not sure we can use that.

The Beatles went from teenage girls, to everyone as they progressed.

But what does any of it ell us? who is the legit demographic, is it students with their pretensions? is it older people with their listening experience, is it kids because they shape the emerging culture. Who?
mgvsmith
28-11-2015
Originally Posted by konebyvax:
“At a time when it was far easier to sell albums. But Shania Twain, big seller that she was, never dominated the industry in the way Adele did with '21' and now with '25'. Plus Shania just stopped making albums abruptly and we don't know if Adele will do that. '25' has outsold the #2 album in the US this week by well over 3 million copies! And I have never claimed she will be as big as the 3 acts mentioned in the OP looking back in the future (no-one can say that because we don't know what will happen yet) but I stick by my belief that, at this moment in time and indeed since 2011, she's as big as all of them.

The naysayers have the benefit of hindsight when looking at MJ, Elvis and The Beatles and the rest is conjecture, in some cases sadly based on personal preference/prejudice.”

That doesn't mean a lot apart from Adele has sold a lot of records. Your concept of biggest seems to just be about market share, which actually isn't a direct indicator of market dominance but is an indicator of brand strength. Adele had little competition on the actual release of '25' and a huge media campaign behind her. Her last album '21' would be a better measure of market share and, perhaps, dominance as it didn't have that initial interest but continued to sell against competitive releases.
konebyvax
28-11-2015
Originally Posted by mgvsmith:
“That doesn't mean a lot apart from Adele has sold a lot of records. Your concept of biggest seems to just be about market share, which actually isn't a direct indicator of market dominance but is an indicator of brand strength. Adele had little competition on the actual release of '25' and a huge media campaign behind her. Her last album '21' would be a better measure of market share and, perhaps, dominance as it didn't have that initial interest but continued to sell against competitive releases.”

'Brand strength?' So you think people (up to 6 million WW) who apparently don't normally buy albums and don't apparently like music (a couple of the mantras of her detractors) went out and bought '25' because there was so little competition this week? Sorry, I think you are struggling with this one. What's made this very difficult for her detractors is the fact that she's followed up (arguably, in real terms given the horrible market for music at the moment) one of the biggest selling albums of all time with one that seemingly has every chance of selling as much. It would have so much simpler for some folks if '25' had flopped, I guess. This thread wouldn't exist for one thing

So far theories regarding why she isn't as big as the 3 mentioned include she sings ballads, she's not exciting enough and she only sells to mums and dads . Must try harder. C-
Chris1964
28-11-2015
Im sure Adele is very nice, sings songs well and has caught a whirlwind when it comes to sales. No way can she be in the same bracket as Elvis and the Beatles though. Elvis changed musical history-same with The Beatles seven years or so later. They defined their era's and their influence is still felt half a century or more later. Adele will never do that even if she is still around musically to release "65".

As for MJ-tremendous vocal performance but its the album production that stands out for me.
Apollo Creed
28-11-2015
Here is a list of the biggest selling artists of all time. Its incredible how much The Beatles sold in such a short career



https://riaa.com/goldandplatinum.php...elling-artists
Jim_McIntosh
28-11-2015
Originally Posted by Thomas007:
“Is she on course to become the greatest artist ever possibly without question? If she keeps on doing this it will be hard to argue. Her sales are phenomenal and certainly not matched by anyone close in her generation currently, her popularity has to be on par with what Elvis, The Beatles, and MJ were in their peaks. I was speaking to an Adele fan and we were talking its sales suggesting if it really catches fire its possible it will outsell Thriller (somewhere between 50-70 million sales), what a legacy that will be, I cant see it personally as 21 as incredible as it was "only" sold between 25-30 million but who knows?”

In terms of sales....don't know and don't think that should be the ultimate measure of an artist.

In terms of influence.....not even in the same ballpark.
Smudged
28-11-2015
Originally Posted by konebyvax:
“And you accuse me of over-simplistic theories then come up with this beauty? Where to start, I really don't know. OK, where are you getting this info regarding Adele's demographic exactly? I'm not sure you have grasped the enormity of her sales (nothing to be ashamed about, they haven't happened arguably ever before allowing for the digital age in which we live) but it's clear that she pretty much appeals to ALL AGES. There's no other explanation for the level of domination she has over the industry right now. And to borrow your level of assumption for a minute I'm ASSUMING that the popular music site ATRL tends to attract a largely young following (in fact it's clear from many of the posts) . Just look at the threads on there regarding Adele at the moment. No excitement? Please.....

PS And what's wrong with older people getting excited anyway? Ageist Alert..”

Removed the tail from between your legs and come back again I see . Sorry dude, but it's you that's being simplistic again. If you bother to read my post properly you'll see that I'm not saying Adele doesn't appeal to any young people or doesn't excite anyone, I'm comparing her directly with the other artists mentioned. And no one in their right mind would say that she is generating the same level of excitement/hysteria or impact among young music fans at the moment that those artists did, no matter how many millions of records she's selling.

I know you like to keep it simple but demographics isn't that straight forward. Your analysis can't simply be to shout ALL AGES . Clearly most artists don't appeal to only one demographic but they don't appeal to them equally so a discussion like this is more about how much of each demographic an artist is appealing to. I don't have any problem with Adele appealing to and exciting older music fans, it's you that seems to hate it when anyone points it out. I'm saying that considering how much she's selling it doesn't feel like she's generating as much excitement/impact as the biggest pop stars usually do. Like I said, it's probably because of her style of music and it's appeal to many older music fans.

It's a perfectly sensible hypothesis to suggest that her appeal to older music listeners (you know, the people more likely to actually still buy music these days) is the biggest factor in how she can sell so much in this day and age (and so much more than the other biggest pop stars of the day).
bryemycaz
28-11-2015
Thing is if we are talking stats. Westlife hold the UK record for the most consecutive number 1 songs. As well as 3rd in the most number 1's ever (UK). Now I could not name you any of them the songs are forgettable boy band pop. So being a big selling artist is one thing. Being a influentiual and cultural artist is another.

Adele may become one of those artists but we will have to see. In 10-20 years time if we see young solo artists seeing her as an influence then great. Or she could be like Westlife just another big selling artist who's now forgotten about.
konebyvax
28-11-2015
Originally Posted by Smudged:
“Removed the tail from between your legs and come back again I see . Sorry dude, but it's you that's being simplistic again. If you bother to read my post properly you'll see that I'm not saying Adele doesn't appeal to any young people or doesn't excite anyone, I'm comparing her directly with the other artists mentioned. And no one in their right mind would say that she is generating the same level of excitement/hysteria or impact among young music fans at the moment that those artists did, no matter how many millions of records she's selling.

I know you like to keep it simple but demographics isn't that straight forward. Your analysis can't simply be to shout ALL AGES . Clearly most artists don't appeal to only one demographic but they don't appeal to them equally so a discussion like this is more about how much of each demographic an artist is appealing to. I don't have any problem with Adele appealing to and exciting older music fans, it's you that seems to hate it when anyone points it out. I'm saying that considering how much she's selling it doesn't feel like she's generating as much excitement/impact as the biggest pop stars usually do. Like I said, it's probably because of her style of music and it's appeal to many older music fans.

It's a perfectly sensible hypothesis to suggest that her appeal to older music listeners (you know, the people more likely to actually still buy music these days) is the biggest factor in how she can sell so much in this day and age (and so much more than the other biggest pop stars of the day).”

You actually use the word DUDE? I should put you on ignore just for that alone. /shudders/ So where is the actual proof of what you say? Seems to me this thread consists of posters like yourself making unsubstantiated assumptions which you *believe/feel* to be true but can't actually back up with any actual proof and posters like me who are giving hard facts to back up my claims but then have them labelled 'simplistic' due to them not being in any way factually possible to refute. But I can see there's no shifting that online ego. At least I tried. Bitch away folks.
Tony_Daniels
28-11-2015
The test will also be how long the songs stay in the public conscience for too. A lot of songs that at the time sold comparatively no where near as well are still listened to, hummed and whistled by millions of people every day 30, 40, 50+ years after they were released.
gold2040
28-11-2015
Originally Posted by Jim_McIntosh:
“In terms of sales....don't know and don't think that should be the ultimate measure of an artist.

In terms of influence.....not even in the same ballpark.”

Not even in the same backyard let alone ball park
Anika Hanson
28-11-2015
Originally Posted by megatron_man:
“As I said previously in another thread, I think Adele will be bigger than all three of them put together.

She is MUSIC at the moment and her sales are incredible (as expected). She is also a fantastic performer and her brit awards performance is more iconic than say mj's motown 25 performance.

This is only her 3rd album and the quality she produces is unbelievable. She is only 27 for god sake and is already a music legend.

I don't think Jacko was as big as her at his peak. it was mostly his off stage antics that made him big.”

Yep MJ was selling out stadiums and has the biggest selling album of all time. He was releasing iconic video after iconic video and has inspired a generations of artists but of course it was all about his antics off stage. No one cared about his music and no- one remembers any of his songs.

Adele is doing incredibly well now but it takes a long time to become a legend. You don't become one it the space of 4 years. Let's see where Adele is at in 15-20 years and then we can say if she's a legend or not. Also there is nothing original about what Adele does. Yes she makes good music but her style is not unique and she has a good voice but not the best. In their day MJ, Elvis and the Beatles were original as mainstream artists.
Tony_Daniels
28-11-2015
Public conscience is really the only barometer left in an age where chart success and even sales can be heavily manipulated by record companies. There's no denying Adele is an exceptional talent and in 10 years time might well be adjudged one of the best, but I do think we'd have to wait and see how much her work stays at the forefront of popular culture as work by the Beatles, Elvis, Michael Jackson and some others have.
Anika Hanson
28-11-2015
Originally Posted by SummerHeart:
“Ridiculous! Adele has a wide and diverse fan base that covers both men and women and all race groups. She appeals to everyone from old people to middle age people to young adults to teenagers to kids. There isn't another young performer around today who has her wide appeal nor is there one that has had the same worldwide impact. Lada Gaga's success between 2009 and 2011 is nothing compared to Adele's success since 2011. You don't sell 30 million copies of an album while only appealing to one group of people. Adele is the biggest thing that's happened in the music business for a long, long time.

She's definitely not bigger than The Beatles, Elvis or Michael Jackson during the Thriller era, but she's definitely bigger than Madonna was at her peak. Madonna has never released an album that's had as much hype and build-up surrounding it as 25 nor has she sold such a huge amount of records in one week like Adele. 21 was bigger than anything Madonna released in the 1980s and 1990s. It sold 30 million copies in four years whereas True Blue took nearly 30 years to sell 25 million copies. I won't list the rest of my reasons why I think Adele is bigger than Madonna, but you can read them in this thread if you want:

http://forums.digitalspy.co.uk/showthread.php?t=2113862”

She's not bigger than Madge come on. I don't like Madonna anymore but in her day she provocative, she basically broke down barriers for female artists and whilst a lot of the stuff she did in the 80's and early 90's was vulgar and trashy, it was iconic and original. Adele is not original. She's a nice artist, with good songs and a good voice. However her style is not unique, it's been done before and her voice is not the best of its kind or any kind.
Jean4ever
28-11-2015
Adele?

Hardly heard of her and never seen her perform.
Bigger than Elvis or the Beatles? I don't think so.
Just a flash in the pan and all publicity

Come back in 50 years and see if any body knows who she is!
Anika Hanson
28-11-2015
Originally Posted by Apollo Creed:
“In terms of how she will be perceived in the future think it's much more realistic that she will go down as a Whitney Houston type figure than any of those 3 artists. I don't think she will leave behind anything like the number of quality songs that the three mentioned did and whilst her sales alone will means she will be remembered I don't think she will be anything more than a footnote in music history”

No she's not an elite vocalist so she will not go down as a Whitney type. Although Whitney didn't influence music in the way people like Elvis, MJ and the Beatles did she was a master vocalist and that's where her legacy lies. She along with Mariah Carey influenced a generation of singers after them. They wrote the book melisma and all the beyonces, Christinas, Ariana's, Leona's etc were influenced by them. Adele has a nice voice but she is not a master vocalist, either technically when compared to the likes of Mariah, Whitney or Celine. Or even other Jazz/folk/Soul singers.
Smudged
28-11-2015
Originally Posted by konebyvax:
“You actually use the word DUDE? I should put you on ignore just for that alone. /shudders/ So where is the actual proof of what you say? Seems to me this thread consists of posters like yourself making unsubstantiated assumptions which you *believe/feel* to be true but can't actually back up with any actual proof and posters like me who are giving hard facts to back up my claims but then have them labelled 'simplistic' due to them not being in any way factually possible to refute. But I can see there's no shifting that online ego. At least I tried. Bitch away folks.”

I knew you wouldn't like "dude" . Of course we're dealing with opinions and assumptions , that's why I used the word hypothesis. But when it comes to what we're talking about i. e. demographics and it's influence on sales, you haven't got any facts either (shouting ALL AGES doesn't cut it I'm afraid ).

Not sure why you think people are "bitching". All some people are saying is that sales on their own are only a measure of popularity, they don't guarantee quality or the sort of impact and influence that other artists have had. So when you keep trying to win an argument with sales stats, it's not surprising that some people are going to say "yeah, she's popular. And?.....".
Inspiration
28-11-2015
Don't be silly.

I'd rank her around Kylie personally.
mgvsmith
28-11-2015
Originally Posted by konebyvax:
“'Brand strength?' So you think people (up to 6 million WW) who apparently don't normally buy albums and don't apparently like music (a couple of the mantras of her detractors) went out and bought '25' because there was so little competition this week? Sorry, I think you are struggling with this one. What's made this very difficult for her detractors is the fact that she's followed up (arguably, in real terms given the horrible market for music at the moment) one of the biggest selling albums of all time with one that seemingly has every chance of selling as much. It would have so much simpler for some folks if '25' had flopped, I guess. This thread wouldn't exist for one thing

So far theories regarding why she isn't as big as the 3 mentioned include she sings ballads, she's not exciting enough and she only sells to mums and dads . Must try harder. C-”

Watch your assumptions. Everyone who disagrees with you is not an Adele 'detractor', this just don't agree with your hyperbole as all you can do is talk numbers.
I have both of Adele's first two albums, I'm not a fan in the sense that I'm not a devoted fan of any artist but that's a high percentage of her complete works.

So you don't understand what marketing dominance and share actually mean but you keep throwing the figures around. The 6 million sales are almost certainly largely attributable to many of the same people who bought the last album. What is surprising about that? And that follows from the media barrage and awareness, who didn't' know there was an Adele album on release? That's the brand awareness point. I thought you were up to speed on your marketing.

Adele has a huge fan base so of course the next album was going to sell. And you keep talking about biggest when you are talking about an album that is fastest selling. '25' hasn't reached '21' sales yet.

And you need to read back as your attempt to summarise the 'theories' of others is inadequate.. Indeed, the better reasons given were actually: that you can't compare different eras; buying patterns change; sales are only one measure; [technology]has changed consumption patterns; and how do you define dominance...influence, greatness anyway etc.
mgvsmith
28-11-2015
Originally Posted by Anika Hanson:
“No she's not an elite vocalist so she will not go down as a Whitney type. Although Whitney didn't influence music in the way people like Elvis, MJ and the Beatles did she was a master vocalist and that's where her legacy lies. She along with Mariah Carey influenced a generation of singers after them. They wrote the book melisma and all the beyonces, Christinas, Ariana's, Leona's etc were influenced by them. Adele has a nice voice but she is not a master vocalist, either technically when compared to the likes of Mariah, Whitney or Celine. Or even other Jazz/folk/Soul singers.”

That's a good point on the nature of influence and legacy. Whitney and Mariah were great artists but they have left us a generation of melisma singers who don't know how to interpret a song.

MJ belonged to a tradition of song and dance men that went back to Vaudeville, Fred Astaire, Gene Kelly etc. but that seems to have been lost in the buzz around Thriller etc.

Adele probably belongs to a tradition of torch song singers, Edith Piaf, Billy Holiday, Patsy Cline, Dusty Springfield, Amy Winehouse etc. That's not a rigorous definition. I hear a lot of C/W elements in her work and I wouldn't be surprised she did a C/W album in future.
my name is joe
28-11-2015
Originally Posted by mgvsmith:
“That's a good point on the nature of influence and legacy. Whitney and Mariah were great artists but they have left us a generation of melisma singers who don't know how to interpret a song.

MJ belonged to a tradition of song and dance men that went back to Vaudeville, Fred Astaire, Gene Kelly etc. but that seems to have been lost in the buzz around Thriller etc.

Adele probably belongs to a tradition of torch song singers, Edith Piaf, Billy Holiday, Patsy Cline, Dusty Springfield, Amy Winehouse etc. That's not a rigorous definition. I hear a lot of C/W elements in her work and I wouldn't be surprised she did a C/W album in future.”

i think that's the right line yes. Forget Whitney & mariah (please). If you put Amy Winehouse's, Patsy Cline's & Dusty's voices into a box & gave it a shake Adele's is what you'd get

On the issue of cultural impact, it's a dying concept these days. For one thing pop music has lost it's narrative - there are no movements any more, we no longer have one thing replacing what went before in reaction to it. We have pluralism now, each doing their own thing...there is literally nobody having what could be termed wider cultural impact in the old Beatles/Dylan sense.
Think about punk, it hardly sold anything at all in the scheme of things but it's impact was to sweep away the old and inspire a multitude of bands to start up. That's not going to be possible today.
It's fine and correct to say Adele isn't a culture changer like Elvis & the Beatles, but then again nobody else around today is either, however leftfield they might be. The culture isn't there to allow that to happen now.

Adele can only do what she does, some will like it some won't, but i for one am happy to see someone with authentic talent at the top of the tree for a change. The measurements & comparisons can wait a decade or three
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