This delayed showing of messages makes it hard to post along with a live show.

If you hit the "Add reply" button you can see all the posts below, albeit in reverse order.

Its getting to be a pain. Even when they appear on page they disappear when refreshed again.

Thank you.

This story about the young lad with CP and the level at which he can communicate, is incredible.

I'll read around in the hope I can learn more about this somewhere other than the S*n.

Nadine gets slapped down for irrelevantly shoe-horning Europe in just have a go. Hah! She was just about to say "muslim" as well as a comparsion to the Christian being prevented from wearing a cross. Changed her mind after Wrighty interrupting,

...

Janet not seeing the hypocrisy in saying, "We're women and we can wear what we want and get the job done". By and large, women have total freedom when it comes to clothing whereas, in most office-based cases, a man has to wear a suit and tie - There's no choice there. I don't hear women bellyaching about that inequality.

There often isn't enough time to make relevant points on the show.
Made to look a bit of a fool there.

Clare on the phone missing the point.

"Who says make-up is sexy?" asks Nadine as if women have to somehow be forced to wear it when most would be horrified at going out for the day without it. Is she being wilfully disingenuous or does she perform some mindflip to deny the objective reality?

...

Nadine's antipathy for Farage is weird. Without him she wouldn't have got what she wanted - UK out of Europe. Her beloved BoJo wouldn't have been able to opportunistically jump on the bandwagon if NF (interesting initials...) hadn't been driving that wagon to start off with!

Hooray

p.s. Just keep pressing f5 furiously until it appears.

Ah Stormy and her pins at the end

[QUOTE Janet not seeing the hypocrisy in saying, "We're women and we can wear what we want and get the job done". By and large, women have total freedom when it comes to clothing whereas, in most office-based cases, a man has to wear a suit and tie - There's no choice there. I don't hear women bellyaching about that inequality.[/quote]

There is still a dress code for women in the office. Has to be smart, and quite rightly so. Men, however, do not have to wear makeup. I used to work for British Aerospace, back in the 80s (one of the last bastions of male chauvinism) and women were frowned upon for wearing trousers, management preferred women to wear skirts!! I wore trousers at every possible opportunity (leather ones, one day, fashionable back then). The ex-Squadron Leader nearly had a heart attack.

Lots of eye-rolling and gurning from Janet today. I often agree with what she says, but sometimes she gets a bit too high on her horse.

Men have a uniform (in offices): Suit, shirt and tie. Women have no equivalent restrictions.

In my experience most women are horrified at the thought of facing the world without slap so this idea they're being forced to wear it is just ridiculous.

I think the discussion revolved specifically around cabin crew, where for some airlines women are often specifically required to wear tight skirts, high heels and thick 'slap'. That isn't acceptable. Be smart, be professional and well-groomed. The rest is inconsequential.

The discussion was broader than that.

Walk down any high steet - The outfit you describe is worn willingly by many women so I'm having a hard time with those who would claim to be forced into that the rest of the time. If it's a tyranny then it's a self-inflicted one!

Admittedly, I only had the prog on in the background so didn't hear the entire discussion. However, yet again you are tarring all women with the same brush. You yourself say 'many women' choose to walk down the high street dressed in such a manner. MANY women is not ALL women. We exchanged comments a few days ago on this very subject. I have only been a member here for a short while (less than two weeks?) but I already can see that you appear to have a very low opinion of women in general, making sweeping statements. That is a shame.

If a woman Chooses to wear such an outfit whilst walking down the street, in her own leisure time, that is one thing, and her choice entirely. To be forced to wear such an outfit and dictated to about how much make-up she needs to wear to work to be able to do her job properly is tyranny.

For instance, I wear very little makeup, and if I went to a job interview and was told I would be hired on condition that I wore a tight skirt, high heels and thick slap, then I would seriously tell them exactly where to go. Because this is not how I would normally dress. I would accept the job being able to wear (smart) clothes of my choosing. IF a uniform, then smart trousers would be required, or a skirt that I choose and would consider suitable for me.

That goes without saying. Generalisations are the only way to deal with something like this as it's clearly impossible to do anything else.


I have a realistic opinion of both sexes. The hypocrisy women perpetuate on a daily basis is something I find particularly bizarre though and it needs to be highlighted. Today's discussion is just another example of that.


Women enjoy the freedom to wear what they want at work and exercise that freedom every day. Men have no such flexibility yet they're not moaning about it because they recognise having to wear a suit for office-work as part of the job. The vast majority of women willingly wear make-up and indeed would be appalled if they were forced not to so I find it hard to take seriously that there's a mass of them feeling oppressed - They themselves have brought about this expectation in the workplace.

I find female inability to recognise and acknowledge their own double-standards to be absolutely fascinating so I look forward to many more such discussions in this thread and on the show.

I still struggle with your argument, a little. In an office environment, for example, women often also have to dress smartly. It is part of the 'uniform' to which all employees have to conform, surely? If, when I worked in an office environment I had turned up in shorts and t-shirt, for example, I would have expected to be reprimanded and sent home. I had to dress smartly, in a suit or other appropriate dress. Length of skirt, amount of make-up and high heels has nothing to do with being groomed and smart and employers have no right to dictate this. In some jobs make-up is not permitted. Various areas of food manufacture, for instance, or healthcare. This is for hygiene reasons, rightly so.

"Smart" isn't a proscribed uniform though is it? It's a nebulous catch-all that enables women to pretty much wear anything they want whereas men know they need a suit to function in most office environments. No such strict dress-code applies to women so the two are not equal.

Look at The Daily Politics on BBC2 now - Three women dressed entirely differently while the two blokes are in suits and ties.

So what would you typically wear to the office, given a choice? (Bearing in mind men don't actually have a great deal of choice). Other than a suit, they can often wear slacks and an open-necked shirt in some work environments. And of course, many men now do wear dresses and make-up. I worked with lawyers and accountants for years, and the men managed to dress up their suits with fancy braces, bow-ties or cravats sometimes. They still wouldn't be told they HAD to wear make-up. It is a ridiculous notion.

Anyway, regrettably I have to go to work now.

Your first point is a simplification that ignores the many jobs that have uniforms or strict dress codes (for both genders).


Your second point is the one that really confuses me though.

"Most" does not mean "all". Also, how do you know it is "most" anyway? The availability heuristic springs to mind here.

Can you be confident that your experience of women is representative of the whole population? While I can't say "most", I do know of many women who regularly don't bother wearing make-up. Either way, anecdotal evidence is not real evidence.

Is it possible that you have preconceived notions about this issue and simply tend to notice (or remember) those instances that fit your preconception? Confirmation bias?

I am curious as to how you are able to make assumptions of the thoughts and feelings of these women. I presume you haven't specifically discussed the issue with "most" women around you. Are you actually making the leap from simply seeing women in make-up to presuming what they think and feel? I would also say that using a loaded word like "horrified" could lead some to make presumptions of your own attitudes, but hopefully this is simply hyperbole.

Also, even if you were right in your claim, is it not still different to enforce the behaviour than women choosing to do it?

Overall, I think it is generally unwise to make sweeping generalizations about half the population, including presumptions about their thoughts, feelings, and motivations. I certainly don't think it adds anything worthwhile or is necessary. If anything, it is more likely to only cause people to make assumptions about you.

Believe what you want. It won't change mine.


Just one in 14 women would go without make-up while many even wear it at the gym

http://www.mirror.co.uk/lifestyle/wo...t-make-6156033


Implication duly noted. Twice now. What does that say about you I wonder....?


We were discussing the average/typical office environment in order to establish a baseline so while of course there are workplaces where the dress-code is more casual they're not the majority.


Untrue. "Many" men do not cross-dress for work.


I don't see the parallel. A tie's a tie - Different design and colours on each one.


The more interesting observation concerning this topic is the overwhelming majority of workplaces where women are not asked to use make-up (because it's not even mentioned) and yet most will still do of their own volition. We could spin that off into talking about peer pressure from other women but that's a whole 'nother discussion.

BIBs what it says is that I am able to speculate on how people may interpret your comments. I may not be right but have reason to believe that many may read more into those sort of comments than may be meant. Incidentally, I didn't say it was what I thought. I have seen your posts here many times and know you like to be provocative at times so am actually more inclined to think that was all you were being here.

As for your link, I applaud that you have provided evidence and certainly it backs you up. That said, it is only right to acknowledge that it is a tabloid newspaper report citing a poll carried out by the cosmetics arm of a supermarket, to mark World Lipstick Day. That doesn't mean it is not accurate but is worth bearing in mind surely. It also seems to be suggesting most women wear "some" make-up which could include very subtle use. There is no mention I could see that they "slap" it on, or are "horrified" about going out not wearing it. Regardless, fair enough in posting some evidence on the issue.

Not really the case that women have total freedom when it comes to clothing .... . Hospitals, banks, supermarkets, shops, etc. have uniforms. Offices that don't have uniforms will probably still have a dress code. There's plenty of women who would happily wear a suit and a tie, especially in winter when their accepted skirts and blouses are hardly warm, and many would like to swap heels and tights for the nice comfy shoes and socks the guys wear!