.

Wrong. Caroline Flack represented the UK in ballroom championships. No-one could be ringier than that! Most of the celebs have had some degree of dance training, either ballet or stage school.

Natalie took dance classes from the age of 4 to 17 and attended Italia Conti, all with the express intention of becoming a professional dancer until her injury. She is still the ringiest ringer ever on SCD, but I agree Jay hasn't taken as much flak as they are very different personalities and there are so many with dance training on the show this year. Unfortunately Natalie was just too far ahead of everyone else in her series so took the 'ringer' flak on her own.

FGS Caroline was dancing with a wheelchair user as a partner ... as if things like ballroom hold etc are going to be the same?? When people trot out this stuff they make sure to omit certain words. If anything, it would have been a hindrance to her .. it's a totally different approach obviously.

It drives me up the wall that people only consider previous dance training as an advantage, despite us seeing clearly that acting gives an advantage, as does good fitness levels let alone those that are able to perform without nerves.

Think the public look for a journey - I know, I know

Natalie started the series as a very good dancer and stayed the same very good dancer - no journey.

Also though I liked watching Natalie dance, felt there was a bit too much fuss around training, etc.

In the launch show Jay was very, very nervous and didn't dance all that well. Now he often dances brilliantly, but has sometimes gone badly wrong, looks different and is still nervous - a journey.

Jay also doesn't make a fuss - nothing said about his grandad's illness in Foxtrot week, Zoe saying early on to the Friday panel that he didn't want the bandage on his knee discussing.

Natalie, Kara, Colin Jackson, they were all better. Jay has done one outstanding dance but has made a lot of mistakes

Jay is very rarely brilliant. Most of the time he's quite boring to watch, but he has a lot of fans who think he's great regardless of how he dances. They make excuses for him while they crucify other celebs for much less.

IMO It wasn't so much that Natalie was previously trained - it was more that the public did not warm to her as a person. I agree though she is a fabulous dancer.
Caroline Flack was previously trained but is quite popular with the public and therefore son
Pixie was similar to Natalie, fabulous dancer but the pubic didn't warm to her either.
Denise Van Outen (prev trained) was the best dancer in her year but she did have the tendency to annoy some viewers being quite outspoken.
This year a lot of the contestants who have had some type of previous dance training are
also popular with the public so it makes it very interesting and harder to predict the eventual winner.

In your opinion whereas in my opinion he is often brilliant but held to a higher standard. His waltz, paso, salsa and tango, at least, were all brilliant for me without even mentioning the jive. But it's all subjective.

There was so much fuss before the series even began that it was almost impossible for people to warm to Natalie.

IMO too I find his performances very memorable - the chemistry between Aliona and Jay is just fabulous and a real pleasure to watch.

Yes, of course

I do think ringers are often marked down to give the appearance of a level playing field.

I do love your seeming inconsistency. Poor Nataliewozrobbed had such a hard time for being a ringah, how unfair.

Oh Jay, yeah, not a fan, he's a dirty ringah

I loved both, the only dirty ringah that bothered me was DVO & I didn't like her as a person, her ringah status never bothered me, after all she just sat on a chair

Noone has discussed anything technical on this thread. I don't mind at all anyone saying that Jay has been the best dancer ever on Strictly (I think he is great although not my favourite dancer) but if the words "best ever technical' are to be used then I would expect the proposal to be backed up with some discussion of technique (same goes for Natalie, Rachel etc.)

My viewpoint is that when I started watching Strictly I would have had insufficient knowledge to make that judgment. Even now with a lot more knowledge I would hesitate, not least because there is often a variance in celebs' ballroom and latin capability, and that's not even considering the other dance genres.

No, I didn't mean it like that. I didn't find Natalie a particularly exciting dancer for the most part and there was a lot of drama surrounding injuries, so I don't think she would have won anyway. The hype about her training just meant that she had no chance before the show even began.

I think most ringers have been marked down to make it seem like an equal competition. Jay is judged to a higher standard, which is unfair.

Denise was a difficult person to like IMO. She brought a lot of history and baggage with her, so being a ringer was the least of her problems.

I think at the end of the day, Strictly is just a popularity contest with a bit of dancing involved for most of the general public. I forgive all sorts of things in Jay that I wouldn't in Peter but I'm quite happy to admit I'm a filthy hypocrite

Most people on here are, but that's what makes the forum fun at times It is mainly a popularity contest.

I agree, I just didn't like their charleston that much and wasn't as together as they could get.
For me Natalie would produce an all round performance in every dance, I thought how she and Artem performed their last dance, the AS, was a master-class in giving your whole self over to a dance, I just loved that.

She was my favourite and have watched her dances a few times over. I loved the quality she bought to the dance and ease.

I know Racheal was very, very good and I did enjoy her dancing also, but I don't know, sometimes she was just doing the steps well, but not really going for it. Her rhumba though was excellent.

exactly

She was labelled a dirty ringah before the series started, Natalie didn't have a hope in hell. Despite all the bad press Natalie got and all the bad feeling on Social Media, she did well to come 2nd

Which brings up the question, is the audience a little bit sexist? Or a lot?

Natalie didn't win because .. by and large .. people didn't warm to her. Nobody .. or hardly anybody .. cares about previous dance experience. Kara, Alesha, Jill, Tom, Caroline and goodness knows who else .. all had previous dance experience of some kind.

I really don't get why people rail against others who have had previous dance experience because .. they feel .. their own particular favourite lost out because of it. They didn't. It would have been some other factor ... usually to do with likeability.

It's funny though, because Natalie is a very likable person with a great personality and very principled person.

I also think the fact she played an unlikable character on a soap didn't help. People take it all very seriously.

I think you're right .. which just goes to show how we're easily influenced.
It's difficult on Strictly. You have to stand out from the crowd but not be too OTT.

She started with ringah criticism and the Kirsty off of Corrie problem, and had to work up from there in terms of winning over the public. I'm not averse to fully supporting ringers, but felt Kirsty was too serious a pairing with Artem and didn't enjoy their dancing very much. That series inspired such intense fanwarz on here, I look back at it very fondly for that reason.

Deleted for misreading the opening post...I thought you meant dancer not single dance.

Yes and this is why I don't want another ringer to win, Caroline was a ringer last year and won and Jay will probably win this year and he is a ringer. Why was it different for Natalie?