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The 'AM death watch' thread...


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Old 01-12-2014, 14:27
MikeBr
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Thurnau is north east of Nuernberg, its signal was in the noise daytime where I was. At night 1422 was the best signal.


The LWs still fill in significant gaps, though probably fewer and fewer listeners - that's something I'd like to see, the actual numbers per slice of the band. I'd go further than your statement: as pubcasters with no ads both orgs could probably shed listeners and wavebands easily. Both do not have as good FM coverage as their Land alternatives - the fmscan.org entries make this very clear.
Switching off longwave and mediumwave for German public broadcasters is to reinvest the money in DAB+ coverage, it's the policy agreed some time ago by the KEF which allocates their funding, so in theory any gaps in reception from closing LW and MW should be filled in by the DAB+ expansion.
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Old 03-12-2014, 18:36
MikeBr
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Poland is switching off their 225 longwave transmitter on 1 March 2015.
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Old 03-12-2014, 20:30
Hertz
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Poland is switching off their 225 longwave transmitter on 1 March 2015.
Interesting.

That means the BBC could put the BBC Radio Four long wave transmitters in Scotland on 225 kHz which was the original plan prior to 1978 (though this never happened).

If I remember correctly, they were allocated 198 kHz at the last minute.
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Old 03-12-2014, 20:38
Alan Thew
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Or just put Westerglen on 225 and leave Burghead on 198. The longwave "SFN" doesn't work. This would increase the distance between the two 198 stations.
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Old 03-12-2014, 21:45
jimbo
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Poland is switching off their 225 longwave transmitter on 1 March 2015.
I missed that one. Source please?
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Old 03-12-2014, 21:54
lundavra
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Or just put Westerglen on 225 and leave Burghead on 198. The longwave "SFN" doesn't work. This would increase the distance between the two 198 stations.
I would think it is very unlikely that the BBC are going to want to spend any money on an antiquated mode like AM on Long Wave.
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Old 03-12-2014, 22:25
Gerry1
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That means the BBC could put the BBC Radio Four long wave transmitters in Scotland on 225 kHz which was the original plan prior to 1978 (though this never happened).
Or just put Westerglen on 225 and leave Burghead on 198. The longwave "SFN" doesn't work. This would increase the distance between the two 198 stations.
I believe the original plan was for Droitwich and Burghead both to use 198, with Westerglen in the middle on 225. That would have avoided the mush areas between Westerglen / Droitwich and between Westerglen / Burghead as well as the need for fill-in MW transmitters in places such as Newcastle.

If I remember correctly, they were allocated 198 kHz at the last minute.
No, 198 was just the existing 200kHz allocation tweaked to be a multiple of 9kHz to simplify the design of frequency synthesisers. Having Westerglen also using 198 instead of 225 was the last-minute decision, taken because it was considered that there would be too much interference coming from Poland, even in daylight. The 225 overspill from Poland was much greater than it is today because their transmitter was higher power and non-directional back then.

It would make a lot of sense to change Westerglen to 225, especially as the cost would be very low. However, I can't see it happening because only DAB is considered to be politically correct...
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Old 03-12-2014, 22:33
jimbo
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I missed that one. Source please?
Spoke too soon here is the source for those who are interested

http://swldxbulgaria.blogspot.co.uk/...-closures.html
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Old 04-12-2014, 00:20
lundavra
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It would make a lot of sense to change Westerglen to 225, especially as the cost would be very low. However, I can't see it happening because only DAB is considered to be politically correct...
The cost is going to be well up in five figures at least. Perhaps not a huge amount but money the BBC could spend better elsewhere.

It's an old mode with a limited number of listeners especially in Scotland, I suspect most would continue to listen on 198 KHz anyway unless a lot more money was spent on an advertising campaign.

Just not worth it considering the limited life for Long Wave in the UK.
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Old 04-12-2014, 23:01
Gerry1
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The cost is going to be well up in five figures at least. Perhaps not a huge amount but money the BBC could spend better elsewhere.
Absolutely not !

The capital cost would be low, and there would be no ongoing expenditure.

In fact, the change could save money every year because the fill-in transmitters in the 'mush' areas (Aberdeen 1449, Carlisle 1485 and Newcastle 603) would become unnecessary and could be switched off.

It would be a very positive example of DQF in action.

I suspect most would continue to listen on 198 kHz anyway unless a lot more money was spent on an advertising campaign.
Absolutely not !

Why would any money need to be spent?

By definition, just a few announcements on R4LW would be sufficient, and they would be completely free !
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Old 05-12-2014, 10:47
lundavra
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I was referring to the costs of the actual change though there could be capital costs involved in changes to the antenna, ATU and transmitter. All those costs mount up and the contractors will not be doing anything for nothing as well as expecting a profit from the work.
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Old 05-12-2014, 13:14
MikeBr
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Spoke too soon here is the source for those who are interested

http://swldxbulgaria.blogspot.co.uk/...-closures.html
The source quoted by the DX'er reporting this in open_dx is a post on a private forum for EBU members, no official announcement by Polish Radio as far as I am aware.

When the Polish Radio External Service were considering using the longwave transmitter some years back, as they were having problems with their shortwave transmitters, they said on air in their English service that whilst this was possible it was not a long term solution as the longwave transmitter would be closing down in a few years time.
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Old 05-12-2014, 14:44
jimbo
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The source quoted by the DX'er reporting this in open_dx is a post on a private forum for EBU members, no official announcement by Polish Radio as far as I am aware.

When the Polish Radio External Service were considering using the longwave transmitter some years back, as they were having problems with their shortwave transmitters, they said on air in their English service that whilst this was possible it was not a long term solution as the longwave transmitter would be closing down in a few years time.
Thank you for clarification
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Old 06-12-2014, 16:39
Glenn A
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Until the late eighties, when Radio 1 was allocated 97-99 FM, about half of all radio listening in this country was to AM. Basic cars and older cars 30 years ago were mostly fitted with AM radios and single band pocket radios were still popular.
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Old 06-12-2014, 17:24
Sid Law
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Until the late eighties, when Radio 1 was allocated 97-99 FM, about half of all radio listening in this country was to AM. Basic cars and older cars 30 years ago were mostly fitted with AM radios and single band pocket radios were still popular.
It was a lot more than half who were listening on AM.
Prior to 1982, very few cars had FM radios - even top end models, and reception was rubbish due to several reasons - lack of RDS so frequent retuning was needed, most (all?) BBC tx's were horizontally polarised and most ILR's had pitifully low powered tx's.
ILR's promoted their AM frequency because most potential listeners would be listening to Radio 1 or Radio 2 on AM.

Before Radio 2 became an FM only station, the majority of their listeners were still using AM. The reasons were simple. Radio 2 had the best coverage on MW of all the BBC stations - no PLA's or LED lamps in these days to cause interference, and the demographic targeted was very much the 45+ generation who had grown up in the 30's, 40's, 50's and '60's and to whom MW/AM was the way you listened to the radio.

Obviously the fact that Radio 1, the most popular station in the country was on MW for most of the time meant that FM didn't really become popular until the late '80's. Radio 1 getting FM, the loss of Radio 2 MW, and the frequency splitting on the ILR's was what kick started FM in this country.
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Old 06-12-2014, 19:00
LaurelandHardy
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It was a lot more than half who were listening on AM.
Prior to 1982, very few cars had FM radios - even top end models, and reception was rubbish due to several reasons - lack of RDS so frequent retuning was needed, most (all?) BBC tx's were horizontally polarised and most ILR's had pitifully low powered tx's.
ILR's promoted their AM frequency because most potential listeners would be listening to Radio 1 or Radio 2 on AM.
Not forgetting of course that a lot of the VHF/FM band was still in use by the police and other such services at the time. Excellent listening though!
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Old 07-12-2014, 13:55
david16
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When the AM switch off happens and the same broadcast of a station can be heard on both DAB and FM they should either shut the FM station down where there are no opt outs for anything at all or broadcast a brand new BBC local station on FM.

Even on the BBC's where there are opt-outs for sport, they ought to have an entirely different output 24/7/365 on DAB and FM apart from possibly news at the top of the hour.

Occasional opt-outs really need to be made a thing of the past come AM switch-off.
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Old 07-12-2014, 16:00
Glenn A
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It was a lot more than half who were listening on AM.
Prior to 1982, very few cars had FM radios - even top end models, and reception was rubbish due to several reasons - lack of RDS so frequent retuning was needed, most (all?) BBC tx's were horizontally polarised and most ILR's had pitifully low powered tx's.
ILR's promoted their AM frequency because most potential listeners would be listening to Radio 1 or Radio 2 on AM.

Before Radio 2 became an FM only station, the majority of their listeners were still using AM. The reasons were simple. Radio 2 had the best coverage on MW of all the BBC stations - no PLA's or LED lamps in these days to cause interference, and the demographic targeted was very much the 45+ generation who had grown up in the 30's, 40's, 50's and '60's and to whom MW/AM was the way you listened to the radio.

Obviously the fact that Radio 1, the most popular station in the country was on MW for most of the time meant that FM didn't really become popular until the late '80's. Radio 1 getting FM, the loss of Radio 2 MW, and the frequency splitting on the ILR's was what kick started FM in this country.
FM tended to be most popular with Radio 3 listeners in those days, as an entire opera would sound terrible on 1215 khz. Also ILR stations were keen to promote the fact they were on stereo FM, probably to get at Radio 1, and I do remember being in halls and Radio Hallam being far better to listen to than Radio 1.
I'd say the move of the BBC's music stations and new local stations being FM only in the nineties saw the big shift to FM.
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Old 07-12-2014, 17:40
Sid Law
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FM tended to be most popular with Radio 3 listeners in those days, as an entire opera would sound terrible on 1215 khz. .
Everything sounds terrible on 1215Khz !

I lived in Edinburgh in the 70's and 80's and could get Radio Forth and Radio Clyde on FM.

Radio Clyde played a lot of 12" singles and sounded better than Forth.....kind of the effect of switching on the "loudness" on hi-fi amp.

Both sounded miles better than Radio 1 on MW. Even when Radio 1 was on Radio 2's FM, it was kind of flat sounding compared to the ILR's.

May be have been before PCM was used to distribute the signal.

I remember the first time I saw the "stereo" light lit on my parents Sanyo Music Centre. Radio Clyde was in stereo from launch at the start of '74. The BBC nationals didn't go stereo until a few months...maybe years later. Radio 2, Radio 3 and Radio 4 held little appeal for a pop mad kid like me so apart from the top 40 on a Sunday, my radio listening was all to R1 on MW, Forth and Clyde on FM.
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Old 07-12-2014, 18:47
Mark C
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Everything sounds terrible on 1215Khz !

I lived in Edinburgh in the 70's and 80's and could get Radio Forth and Radio Clyde on FM.

Radio Clyde played a lot of 12" singles and sounded better than Forth.....kind of the effect of switching on the "loudness" on hi-fi amp.

Both sounded miles better than Radio 1 on MW. Even when Radio 1 was on Radio 2's FM, it was kind of flat sounding compared to the ILR's.

May be have been before PCM was used to distribute the signal.
That might have had something to do with it, though Capital in the 1970s sounded better than Radio 1/2 from Wrotham (and Wrotham (obviously) had a top quality feed, even before PCM)

The IBA didn't allow ILR to apply any processing to FM (other than a limiter) so it's odd there was a difference at all.
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Old 07-12-2014, 20:33
MikeBr
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An update on the Polish 225 transmitter from the same person who saw the information in the EBU forum.. A Polish listener contacted them and someone who works for Polish Radio and helped construct the site says he is unaware of any plans.

"It turns out to broadcast on the long waves for the 1st program is 40-50% cheaper than FM, the reason is that the LW transmitter is wholly owned by the Polish Radio and FM transmitters are leased from a private company.
3 months ago marked the 15th anniversary of the station in Soltsy Kujwalski. The general director of the Polish Radio said that more than 40% of the audience listen to Polish Radio 1 on longwave, the transmitter has 10-15 years more life in it.
In 2012 there were proposals to close it because of financial problems, many letters objecting to this were received, several were read out on air." (Amended Google translation from Russian)
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Old 07-12-2014, 21:32
Walt Ham
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When the AM switch off happens and the same broadcast of a station can be heard on both DAB and FM they should either shut the FM station down where there are no opt outs for anything at all or broadcast a brand new BBC local station on FM.

Even on the BBC's where there are opt-outs for sport, they ought to have an entirely different output 24/7/365 on DAB and FM apart from possibly news at the top of the hour.

Occasional opt-outs really need to be made a thing of the past come AM switch-off.
Where's the money coming from for some "brand new BBC local station"?
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Old 07-12-2014, 21:47
Glenn A
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Everything sounds terrible on 1215Khz !

I lived in Edinburgh in the 70's and 80's and could get Radio Forth and Radio Clyde on FM.

Radio Clyde played a lot of 12" singles and sounded better than Forth.....kind of the effect of switching on the "loudness" on hi-fi amp.

Both sounded miles better than Radio 1 on MW. Even when Radio 1 was on Radio 2's FM, it was kind of flat sounding compared to the ILR's.

May be have been before PCM was used to distribute the signal.

I remember the first time I saw the "stereo" light lit on my parents Sanyo Music Centre. Radio Clyde was in stereo from launch at the start of '74. The BBC nationals didn't go stereo until a few months...maybe years later. Radio 2, Radio 3 and Radio 4 held little appeal for a pop mad kid like me so apart from the top 40 on a Sunday, my radio listening was all to R1 on MW, Forth and Clyde on FM.
I did hear of Radio 1 hosting a road show in Glasgow and everyone turning up with Radio Clyde T shirts on. Some of the big city ILR stations socked it to Radio 1 in the seventies, even on MW the signal was clearer and the programmes were often better. Yet when Radio 1 moved to 275/285 the reception was a lot better and they managed to stop a fall off in ratings.
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Old 08-12-2014, 00:39
jimbo
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Everything sounds terrible on 1215Khz !

I lived in Edinburgh in the 70's and 80's and could get Radio Forth and Radio Clyde on FM.

Radio Clyde played a lot of 12" singles and sounded better than Forth.....kind of the effect of switching on the "loudness" on hi-fi amp.

Both sounded miles better than Radio 1 on MW. Even when Radio 1 was on Radio 2's FM, it was kind of flat sounding compared to the ILR's.

May be have been before PCM was used to distribute the signal.

I remember the first time I saw the "stereo" light lit on my parents Sanyo Music Centre. Radio Clyde was in stereo from launch at the start of '74. The BBC nationals didn't go stereo until a few months...maybe years later. Radio 2, Radio 3 and Radio 4 held little appeal for a pop mad kid like me so apart from the top 40 on a Sunday, my radio listening was all to R1 on MW, Forth and Clyde on FM.
Stereo broadcasts on the BBC for real started in 1966 on Network 3, then were added to Radio 2 around 1972. Central Scotland got stereo in 1974.

Many but not all transmitters were in stereo by the time of the frequency changes in 1978.. There are still a couple in Scotland today that are in Mono for Radio Scotland and Radio Nan Gaidheal.
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Old 08-12-2014, 06:47
hanssolo
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An update on the Polish 225 transmitter from the same person who saw the information in the EBU forum.. A Polish listener contacted them and someone who works for Polish Radio and helped construct the site says he is unaware of any plans.

"It turns out to broadcast on the long waves for the 1st program is 40-50% cheaper than FM, the reason is that the LW transmitter is wholly owned by the Polish Radio and FM transmitters are leased from a private company.
3 months ago marked the 15th anniversary of the station in Soltsy Kujwalski. The general director of the Polish Radio said that more than 40% of the audience listen to Polish Radio 1 on longwave, the transmitter has 10-15 years more life in it.
In 2012 there were proposals to close it because of financial problems, many letters objecting to this were received, several were read out on air." (Amended Google translation from Russian)
There is probably a debate going on within Polish radio how to procede and still provide a service with Government costs.
Overall LW operating costs tend to be more than FM and maintenance of old transmitters and masts can take up a lot of extra costs which perhaps some in Polish radio are not taking into account?
Poland is also rolling out DAB+ and internet whose operating costs are much lower than FM or AM?
From 2013 when SW was cut
http://swling.com/blog/2013/10/polis...ons-shortwave/
Polish Radio is now heavily promoting its DAB+ transmissions, so they are even advising listeners of their external service to listen on digital radios.
From http://www.wohnort.org/dab/poland.html
Future Sites:
Gdańsk, Kielce, Kraków, Szczecin, Wrocław (1st August 2014)
Łódż, Opole, Poznań (1st October 2014)
Bydgoszcz, Koszalin, Olsztyn, Zielona Góra (1st January 2015)
Białystok, Lublin, Rzeszów (1st April 2015)
Glzycko, Kalisz, Płock, Siedice (1st July 2016)
Pozostałe (1st December 2020)
Shutting down 225 will help pay for the DAB+ rollout but probably has a lot of opposition?
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