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Old 21-12-2016, 19:46
Vectorsum
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The detection bandwidth for the digital time information is probably only a few tens of Hertz, so transmitter power could be massively scaled back from whatever it's set at now (claimed to be 2 MW). As an example, the actual radiated power from the time signal at Anthorn in Cumbria is just over 15 kW and probably reaches a couple of thousand km on 60 kHz. The antenna array at Allouis, if that's the site that will eventually be used, will be much more efficient than the 'T' at Anthorn but the frequency is higher and therefore more lossy, so probably 30-50 kW EMRP would do it for the time signal.
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Old 21-12-2016, 20:04
hanssolo
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The detection bandwidth for the digital time information is probably only a few tens of Hertz, so transmitter power could be massively scaled back from whatever it's set at now (claimed to be 2 MW). As an example, the actual radiated power from the time signal at Anthorn in Cumbria is just over 15 kW and probably reaches a couple of thousand km on 60 kHz. The antenna array at Allouis, if that's the site that will eventually be used, will be much more efficient than the 'T' at Anthorn but the frequency is higher and therefore more lossy, so probably 30-50 kW EMRP would do it for the time signal.
It's just not the electric bill but also support of transmitters and masts which is getting expensive.
As with 252, doubt if there will be any other bids for the site?
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Old 21-12-2016, 20:08
Colin_London
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It's just not the electric bill but also support of transmitters and masts which is getting expensive.
As with 252, doubt if there will be any other bids for the site?
Would the ITU allow use of 162 only for a time service? It's a voice broadcasting band.
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Old 22-12-2016, 15:41
MikeBr
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There's now a short announcement just after the half hour on 162 advising of the 26 December closure, that listeners should now use FM and a telephone number for any questions.
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Old 22-12-2016, 15:47
FmBandScan
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There's now a short announcement just after the half hour on 162 advising of the 26 December closure, that listeners should now use FM and a telephone number for any questions.
I wonder what time they will turn off the transmitter? Will it be midnight on 25th that goes to 26th?
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Old 22-12-2016, 17:56
MikeBr
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I wonder what time they will turn off the transmitter? Will it be midnight on 25th that goes to 26th?
Not sure, a French poster to the British DX Club list says that after France Inter goes off they will run retune announcements until January 1.
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Old 22-12-2016, 19:36
hanssolo
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A poster on the British DX Club list says that it was announced on France Inter today that 162 would close on December 26.

However this article says that the hourly time signal on 162 will continue and that the Government has authorised the National Frequency Agency to conduct tests from January 1.

French article, translates quite well into English.

http://www.lalettre.pro/Le-signal-ho...er_a12354.html
If the UK and German time sources can be received in France on the lowe 77khz band, might be if no one takes over the audio 162 might fully close.
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Old 22-12-2016, 19:49
Colin_London
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If the UK and German time sources can be received in France on the lowe 77khz band, might be if no one takes over the audio 162 might fully close.
I think the issue is the number of clocks out there designed just to receive 162. You'd have to replace or modify them all.
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Old 22-12-2016, 20:58
hanssolo
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I think the issue is the number of clocks out there designed just to receive 162. You'd have to replace or modify them all.
From http://tvignaud.pagesperso-orange.fr...ouis-heure.htm
If I read correctly the figure was estimated at 200k in July 2015, Supposed to be compatible (with a few slight changes) to DCF77, not sure if the clocks will also retune to DCF77 if there is no signal on 162?
The clock sets for the UK tuned to MSF Anthorn do not seem to retune to DCF77?.
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Old 23-12-2016, 02:26
Zaxx
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The time signal will remain on the 162 kHz

The National Frequency Agency (ANFR) has been commissioned by the Government to maintain the broadcast of the time signal after the cessation of France Inter on Long Wave in late December. This service is widely used in key sectors of French industry to synchronize more than 200,000 clocks.

Some public service undertakings, such as SNCF, Enedis or Aéroports de Paris, but also local authorities, use this signal to synchronize clocks in public places, information panels, public lighting or the synchronization of pay and display machines.

This radio-synchronization service on 162 kHz provides a time reference of very high accuracy and reliability. It has the advantage of being better received in indoor spaces than other time signals, such as GPS or mobile phone networks.

The Government wish to maintain the broadcasting of these time signals after the termination of France Inter's programmes. In this context, it has mandated ANFR to organize the maintenance of this broadcast as of 1 January 2017.

ANFR, in close association with TDF, the CFHM (French Chamber of Watchmaking and Microtechniques) , and the main users of the signal, will carry out tests from early 2017 to adjust the broadcast parameters of the time signal.
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Old 23-12-2016, 06:58
swb1964
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LWexit in France and Ireland, FMexit in Norway but with the odd exception our AM infrastructure here in the UK remains broadly intact.

I wonder if 2017 will bring any announcements of larger scale closures here.
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Old 23-12-2016, 07:27
Mark C
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If the UK and German time sources can be received in France on the lowe 77khz band, might be if no one takes over the audio 162 might fully close.
Forget reception of MSF60 from Anthorn in France, it's useless enough here in Hampshire !

Surely DCF77 Frankfurt is the way forward (for all of us !)
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Old 23-12-2016, 07:53
buglawton
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It's not clear to me whether the time signal service would be from Allouis and if so whether they would need to use such a powerful transmitter. But they have asked whether any other group wishes to use the frequency.

CSA website today (google translate of French)

"The frequency 162 kHz belongs to the wide wave range and allows to cover with a single transmitter a large part of the metropolitan territory. However, the quality of listening is not comparable to that of FM: the sound broadcast in large waves is monophonic whereas it is often stereophonic in FM.

In order to determine whether the Commission should initiate the procedures necessary to appeal the 162 kHz frequency, it decided to issue a call for expressions of interest for the broadcast of a radio service on the 162 kHz frequency.

Responses are expected no later than 16 January 2017."

http://www.csa.fr/Espace-juridique/D...tion-d-interet
Refreshing to hear an official body mandating stereo (even for a speech station like France Inter). When most commercial UK DAB music broadcasters are happy with mono.
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Old 23-12-2016, 08:04
Mark C
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Refreshing to hear an official body mandating stereo (even for a speech station like France Inter). When most commercial UK DAB music broadcasters are happy with mono.
All they are saying is the LW transmission is mono, and FM allows for stereo, unless it's lost in translation, it doesn't even state FM's major advantage is better basic audio quality over LW. And that's about it ?
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Old 23-12-2016, 10:28
lundavra
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Forget reception of MSF60 from Anthorn in France, it's useless enough here in Hampshire !

Surely DCF77 Frankfurt is the way forward (for all of us !)
Just as Rugby was in much of the UK before Anthorn took over.
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Old 23-12-2016, 10:30
lundavra
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Refreshing to hear an official body mandating stereo (even for a speech station like France Inter). When most commercial UK DAB music broadcasters are happy with mono.
They actually say "whereas it is often stereophonic in FM" so not "mandating stereo"
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Old 23-12-2016, 14:22
Mark C
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Just as Rugby was in much of the UK before Anthorn took over.
Rugby covered the urban conurbations of the south east and midlands very well.

I bet Anthorn overall serves fewer people properly, compared with Rugby.

I'm sure you get a great signal in Western Scotland, but you might have noticed, not many others live there, it's all about population, and not land mass
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Old 23-12-2016, 14:57
kev
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Rugby covered the urban conurbations of the south east and midlands very well.

I bet Anthorn overall serves fewer people properly, compared with Rugby.

I'm sure you get a great signal in Western Scotland, but you might have noticed, not many others live there, it's all about population, and not land mass
Indeed - had to switch to DCF-77 since the change from Rugby here in the East Midlands... The one clock stuck on MSF gets a time signal about twice a week in winter and one a month or so in summer.
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Old 24-12-2016, 12:54
hanssolo
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Forget reception of MSF60 from Anthorn in France, it's useless enough here in Hampshire !

Surely DCF77 Frankfurt is the way forward (for all of us !)
Doing a quick check on the web (also need a new kitchen wall clock) Precision had a multi station travel radio but now discontinied and they just has MSF sets (maybe down to costs and also found a review saying it had a complicated menu) There were clocks being sold in the middle east for 162khz due to its range, but also discontinued.
All radio controlled clocks now are either MSF60, DSF77, DAB or web NTP. There does not seem to any on 162khz, so if there are just 200k clocks or devices if no radio station takes over 162 and the transmitter closes, power could be initally reduced and notice could be given to replace the existing 162 only controlled clocks or let them freerun?.
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Old 24-12-2016, 13:43
MikeBr
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There's some detailed information on the time signal service here which google translates quite well

http://tvignaud.pagesperso-orange.fr...ouis-heure.htm

There's many more pages on the history of Allouis linked from here however the way it's set up on Chrome for translate to work on individual pages you have to click, copy link address and then paste it in another tab.

http://tvignaud.pagesperso-orange.fr...fr-allouis.htm

and some photos

http://tvignaud.pagesperso-orange.fr.../18allouis.htm
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Old 24-12-2016, 15:10
lundavra
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Doing a quick check on the web (also need a new kitchen wall clock) Precision had a multi station travel radio but now discontinied and they just has MSF sets (maybe down to costs and also found a review saying it had a complicated menu) There were clocks being sold in the middle east for 162khz due to its range, but also discontinued.
All radio controlled clocks now are either MSF60, DSF77, DAB or web NTP. There does not seem to any on 162khz, so if there are just 200k clocks or devices if no radio station takes over 162 and the transmitter closes, power could be initally reduced and notice could be given to replace the existing 162 only controlled clocks or let them freerun?.
I have a Braun one that does MSF, DCF77, WWV and a Japanese station but it does not have any way of adjusting the offset as far as I can see.
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Old 27-12-2016, 06:50
Vectorsum
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Odd, there is still audio on 162 kHz Allouis. Listening to the morning news just now.
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Old 27-12-2016, 14:36
MikeBr
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Odd, there is still audio on 162 kHz Allouis. Listening to the morning news just now.
Having broadcast 26 December closedown announcements just after the half hour since at least December 21 they then changed them December 25, or perhaps earlier, to January 1.

They also took their weekly Tuesday morning maintenance break at 0005 UK time to 055 leading some to assume that they had pulled the plug.

Here is the closure announcement on a Piano Crystal set made by Duvivier.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SuQRUEwEapQ

Updated announcement on their website, says FM coverage is 97% of France by territory.

https://www.franceinter.fr/info/fin-...r-france-inter
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Old 03-01-2017, 22:12
MSmith
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Apologies if I've missed mention of this but 1395kHz from Albania seems to have gone. Although used most recently by TWR this was the old Radio Tirana frequency for updates on latest Marxist-Leninist successes.
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Old 03-01-2017, 22:15
FmBandScan
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Apologies if I've missed mention of this but 1395kHz from Albania seems to have gone. Although used most recently by TWR this was the old Radio Tirana frequency for updates on latest Marxist-Leninist successes.
This is taken from mediumwave news:

TWR Europe has stopped using 1395 kHz Albania relay and the following replacing transmissions have been added via other sites:
Polish 2045-2115 mtwtf.s 1467 kHz Roumoules, France 25 degrees
Hungarian 2000-2045 Mon-Fri & 2000-2025 Sat/Sun 1548 kHz Grigoriopol, Moldova
Romanian 2030-2100 daily 999 kHz Grigoriopol, Moldova.

So it's more of a frequency change if anything, and it frees up the Dutch LPAM stations from having to go off air in the evening. I read the 1395 TX was in very bad condition.
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