"Bad Wolf" is nothing to do with fanfic/novels influences as far as anyone's aware of.

"Bad Wolf" is to do with what you're actually seeing on screen in the show.

As for the thread, well I've got to disagree with you.
This thread isn't doing too well compared to the previous Doc Who threads.
The other Doc Who threads were about a thousand posts long, while this one looks like it's about to die with about half as many posts.

Okay.

So isn't the fact that Rose's DNA resurrects the Daleks again possibly a clue?
Or do you think that it's something seperate from that?

Remember the poster who mentioned the that the password for the UNIT website could be found by reading the source HTML page in wordpad?
Well do you remember the other poster who mentioned that in that page, the creators of the website had done a little joke by naming one of their graphics "herring_red.gif"?

"herring_red.gif" is just used as a tiny graphic that's tiled repeatedly on the webpage to give a pretty red border on the UNIT webpage......BUT......

Download the "herring_red.gif" graphic.

It's 24 * 48 pixels in width.

Open "herring_red.gif" in a graphics software package, or image viewing software.

Then zoom in several times.


You should now see that the zoomed in image of "herring_red.gif" is actually an image of the famous double-helix image that represents the DNA strand.

It's slightly blurred, but you can even see shadows falling on the ribs of the helter skelter structure.

(Maybe they got this idea from watching "Blade Runner")

Wouldnt the fact that double helix can be seen might support the theory that Rose could be the key and her passing it onto the Dalek could influence future events with the Time War?

Good to see you on the forums Alrightmate..you have been missed.

Thanks Black Guardian, that's very kind of you.

Yes, that's what I was hinting at with the DNA double-helix image.
Of course if you see on lone graphic titled herring_red.gif, then there's a pretty good chance that it probably isn't a red herring at all, if you consider reverse psychology.

Nobody really commented on some of my thoughts a page or two ago. Neither to agree with anything, or to disagree with anything. I'm a bit confused really.
It must have been too boring to read.
Maybe we are just supposed to problem solve and look for solutions to theories now.
I mentioned a guy called Rodrick, and nobody even thought about what his involvement with anything was.

Anyway, sod it. I can't be arsed with the looking for clues lark anymore. It's just becoming a circular regurgitation of what we've already said in previous threads now.

For all I know one of the first thoughts I had about the Doctor not being exaclty who we or he thinks he is, is probably as likely as anything right now. I said he could be possessed by the Master or something. For all I know he probably is.

Anyway, there's more then two days left before Dalek airs.
Does anyone feel like saying what their feelings about the series as a whole are right now?
Anyone got major negative criticisms they want to get off their chest before Dalek starts and the good times roll?

I'm going to get my criticisms off my chest anyway.

My Disappointments With the Series so Far


I know that criticism of Doctor Who is frowned on quite often, but I don't see why people should be defensive. Russell T Davies more or less made it clear that he is looking for feedback, so if he finds opinions of criticism he feels are very valid, then it's good for everyone because then things can be even better.
If people just heap praise on it non-stop, then it's harder to find ways to improve on things for series 2.

I personally find it a bit of a cop out when some people answer criticism by saying "Oh but it's good for kids. The kids like it, my Grandma likes it, my 6 year old niece likes it.....". Or even with "Look at how popular the show is. The popularity of the show means that all is well".
Well I can only watch the show and enjoy it from my own point of view. I don't care if kids like it, or Granny likes it, as much as what I myself get from the show.

A very popular show, that kids like, old people like, and is good family fun and entertainment.
Well why not watch "Ant and Dec's Saturday Takeaway"? That would fulfil that set of criteria.

I also don't agree that the people who criticise the series are certain types of people who have some sort of romanticised vision of Doc Who, and that the people who love the show are a different type of person who "get it" or something. People are people, and most may just judge the show based on what they see.

Yes, it's good that the show is doing well, and getting the ratings we all want it to get, but at what cost?
I understand that it needs to be a hit, and that's excellent, but I'd also like to think that things are to improve while the show finds it's feet.
I do think that it's possible for the show to be a hit, and also be excellent, suspenseful, exciting, great science fiction at the same time.
To think that Doctor Who can only be successful if it's dumbed down for 8 year olds is a depressing thought.

Just like adults, 8 year olds can enjoy different styles of humour, and also appreciate a good story that they can get involved in, and don't all rely on spoon fed humour.
In fact, I'd stick my neck out and say that kids can enjoy sci-fi that is a bit more subtle and mature than some of what we've seen so far to date in this series.
There's been plenty of sci-fi shows over the years that kids have enjoyed, and embraced wholeheartedly, that have been a bit more mature and intelligent, in both stories and humour than this Doctor Who has acheived so far.

Doctor Who comes across to me as a "Jack of all Trades" right now, and doesn't quite hit the mark with me right now and deliver an overall stamp of excellence.
It has the ingredients all there, but it somehow doesn't seem to come together to make the perfect recipe.
If you like comedy, ...The Office or Little Britain do it better.
If you like Drama,....other shows can do better
If you like Soap Opera,.....Coronation Street, or Eastenders is probably better
If you like Science Fiction,.....there's better stuff been done over the years

It doesn't quite deliver on most counts. It appears to try and deliver on all these counts, but doesn't quite do it for me.
The stories are very weak, as mentioned by others, the 45 minutes has provided very thin storylines, with very weak solutions. Now I don't know why they can't get this right. American shows such as Star Trek, Babylon 5 etc...they all somehow manage to do it right, yet you don't feel the story has been compromised or rushed usually. Maybe this might be due to inexperience of Doc Who writers actually writing for a 45 minute slot.
The Soap Opera elements, They're okay, I like the idea of introducing rounded characters, but I think they can only work in Doc Who if other elements are up to par.
The comedy. One or two times it works. Chris Eccleston has delivered some sublime lines once or twice, so he can do it, but unfortunately he overdoes it for the most part (Maybe this isn't always his fault, and maybe there is something here in why he decided to leave,...maybe). It's the humour in Doc Who that I find ruins a lot of the other elements. This is the time when people say "Ahhh..but it's for kids".
No, I'm not buying that, it's not just for kids. It's for a broad range of people. RTD even mentioned something about having to match "Buffy" in some respects, he said it would be tricky. It's on at 7pm, it has to be for adults too. The jokes are more often than not, just simply spoonfed to us, and signposted for us with big cheesy grins, as though saying "Look, here's the comedy bit, aren't we clever?" in a very self-aware manner.
Even 8 year olds can handle more subtlety than that. It's the way comedy has generally been handled so far in this series that often makes me feel that the show looks like it would normally be shown at the 4.30pm Children's television slot as a replacement for "My Parents are Aliens", or "Rentaghost", if it wasn't for the big budget invested in it.

The drama....completely undermined by the comedy. Any potential for drama, any potential for suspense, scares, anything really, it's all ruined by a "Chuckle Brothers" comedy moment.

Visual flair, artistic design, the look -- Outstanding!!!!
(Except for the Slitheen costumes)

It's so frustrating, it's nearly there, but doesn't quite suceed for me on many counts.
I think The Unquiet Dead has been the episode that I really liked the most. Still flawed in some respects, but I thought Euros Lyn and Mark Gatiss did an excellent job there.
I suppose I can be relieved that Keith Boak's episodes are out of the way, despite him having some strengths, he has probably been more responsible than anyone else for the extremely dumbed down episodes of Doctor Who. If he comes back I think he needs to be braver and more dynamic, and not substitute suspense and scares with pathetic comedy. Some good scenes, but his episodes always come across as flat and weak, and the stories come across as very weak in his episodes.
But having said that, he was directing what RTD himself wrote, so maybe it's not all Keith's responsibility for what I felt were the poorest episodes.

RTD also said that he didn't want this series of Doctor Who to become a parody of itself, and look like people in rubber gorilla costumes. Well I'm afraid that he might be more than a little disappointed with one or two episodes on that score. I think he didn't match up to his own ambition in one or two of the episodes, and I think you'll know which episodes I'm talking about.
I really hope that RTD has seriously had a second thought about some of the comedy, because at times Doctor Who has definitely crossed that line of being a pardody of itself once or twice.

And I know this might sound like a really bad thing to say, but I'm not so sure that Russell T Davies has been at his best in some of his writing. I have to say that. Although what he has done overall in everything he has done, well I take my hat off to him.

You may find it hard to beleive, in face of my criticisms, but I still actually enjoy the show...LOL.
I can just see areas where I think a lot can be done to improve on things.

Right now we're in the honeymoon phase.
I'm sure we can applaud this series and sing it's praises for a while. But I think there will be a cut off point where we are happy that Doc Who is back, but we may just have a niggling feeling that it's underacheiving (not in ratings, but in quality).
As it goes, I don't think this is going to happen, I have a gut feeling that from the Dalek episode onwards the series is going to drastically improve.

In fact, to end on a positive note, I think that Joe Ahearne is going to blow us away. And I'm particularly looking forward to seeing what the combination of RTD and Joe Ahearne is like compared to the excellent Euros Lyn and Mark Gatiss pairing.
Although some of my criticisms may sound harsh, I do have a feeling of confidence, and genuine optimism that the remaining shows are going to show some signs of dramatic improvement.

Interesting observations Alrightmate.

I do wonder sometimes whether its because the public remember watching the series as a nipper (who really ought not to have been watching) and then presume that the new series should be "made" with children in mind.

I personally would prefer a darker more adult series, but the Beeb has to get in the viewing figures and, more importantly, sell the sonic screwdrivers at Christmas!

Overall I'm very glad its back. Let's hope Dalek will be a better script than the last one.

Alrightmate,

I agree with your criticism and praise of the series so far. It has been a bit of a mixed bag in terms of the different elements but I also think that this has been deliberate.

With CE's replacement already secretly signed on before this new series aired, it seems that it was always BBC's intention to produce a second series.

I think that what this new series has provided is a thirteen part experiment in what the new Who should be.

Do people want comedy? Recurring characters? Stories set in our present/past or future? Darker episodes? Alien worlds? Traditional foes or new enemies? Action and effects or heavy plotting? Self-contained episodes, two-parters or an ongoing story-arc?

The list of what the current series is providing goes on and on. I don't think it's a case of throwing everything into Who and seeing what sticks either. The success of the new series so far has been that there really is something in it for everybody. Hence the large audience figures that seem for the most part to be coming back each week.

I think RTD and co will be checking the fan sites and forums to see how people are reacting to the individual elements and therefore tailor the second series a little more to fan demands. However, if the ratings for the current series continue to remain steady, I'd expect the next series to provide the same mix of elements for everybody.

I know that the 45 minute episodes don't contain as much plotting as some would hope for, but at least if it's a less-developed idea or not as good as the previous episode then there's always the next episode and (with the exception of the two-parters) "a different feel" to look forward to.

I'd like the remainder of the series to be more consistent in tone and have a better balance of the comedy/drama/soap and all the other different elements, but I think part of the fun so far has been that you don't know what you're going to get next.

BTW maybe Rose isn't THE key but A key, literally ???

Episode 12 title! From the outpost gallifrey website:...

According to the new issue of "Doctor Who Magazine," out Thursday, the title of episode twelve is Bad Wolf, confirming rumors that the ongoing hints of this phrase in several previously aired episodes do indeed have something to do with the ongoing plotline. DWM also confirms that Anne Robinson, known on both sides of the Atlantic as the host of "The Weakest Link," will be making a cameo voiceover appearance in one of the last stories of the season, confirming rumors circulating the past week.

Or, it could just be called herring_red because it's a herringbone pattern?

Like this one for example?

If you look at the other pages, as well as tableherring_red, I found tableherring and tableherring_green.

Just a thought.....

Alrightmate:

Your criticisms are quite valid and I'm broadly in agreement with you.

I've enjoyed this new series so far, even as far as the levels of silliness go, but it does seem to be lacking something. Looking back at old episodes, it's clear to see that the new series has made huge improvements in terms of the production design - even to my eyes as a youngster it always looked cheaply-made.

But also comparing it with old episodes, I agree that the pacing and direction has been way off the mark at times, particularly with the Slitheen episodes. I don't know whether that's a fault of the direction particularly, or with the editing.

As for the scripts and storylines, the silliness factor is certainly nothing new. I lost interest during the late Tom Baker seasons because the whole thing got rather silly. Things improved a bit during the Davison years but then fell off again during the Colin Baker episodes (mostly due to his Coco the Clown costume, I think I never watched the McCoy episodes because I was a teenager by then and far too grown up and sophisticated to watch a kids' show

I just wonder if the Beeb are still cautious of the criticisms levelled at a number of the Pertwee episodes which said that it was too scary for children, which would be a shame because even though I was frightened out of my wits at stories like Terror of the Autons and The Green Death, I also loved them (and I haven't been traumatised for life.)

RTD is certainly not averse to taking risks (just look at Queer as Folk), so I think he could go all-out to scare the kids if he really wanted to, but any tension just seems to be offset and diluted by the humour.

I have big expectations about the Dalek episodes but I wonder if they'll ever match the horror of Genesis of the Daleks, where we saw Davros for the first time (forever imprinted on my memory

I do understand that they have to strike a balance between entertaining the kids and their parents at the same time, always a tricky task, and I think it has succeeded in episodes like The Unquiet Dead.

Doctor Who has always walked a fine line between silliness and seriousness and this new series is no exception. It's been enjoyable so far and outstanding in one or two episodes, but please, no more fart gags.

So little chance that all the Bad Wolf references are a red herring - despite the amusing discussions of .gif files and the like.

Hopefully Anne Robinson will be, to borrow from the great DNA, first up against the wall when the new Dalek revolution comes! Suggestions that she will be an Auton due to the amount of plastic surgery she has had are I think a mite cruel.... but damned funny! She's got to die though - the show is made in Wales, the place where she is still so popular!

Perhaps the dalek uses Rose's DNA to make a new Davros...

Davrose, as it were.

Alrightmate,
I think your comments are excellent on here, and whilst I agree that there are areas for improvement on the existing episode, I think they have been good to excellent. Maybe its just my juvenile humour, but I really enjoyed the farting aliens, the space pig was wonderful (and realistic - especially when dying), and the doctor is still appears to be inconsistent.

Yes, it doesn't meet the high standards of the US equivalents, but it also doesn't have the US budgets too.

On storylines, the first couple of episodes were about establishing the characters to a new audience, but still entertaining. If I had my way, I would have made The Unquiet Dead the 2 parter, and Aliens of London, 45mins only, but I'm not the writer (not yet anyway )

I think from now on the episodes start to take on more of a Psychological nature, and hopefully the story arc begins drive the episodes.

Can't wait until Saturday, I think the viewing figures will beat Rose too....

I am with you on this Alrightmate. I for one don't like being told that I have to like something or that I have to toe the loyal fan line as to do otherwise means I can't really like the series and it is disloyal in some way. Tosh!

The fact that people can come on here and say that they didn't like it for quite a valid reason and explain that in an intelligent, rational manner indicates to me that the poster does 'care' about the series and isn't just pulling it to pieces just for the sake of it. I think RTD will be far more interested in reading and hearing comments like that than just praise being lavished on the programme as it does make those views not just sycophantic but also unreliable. If someone keeps saying you are wonderful out of loyalty when you really do need honesty and open debate then I would be far more inclined to listen to those who do offer constructive criticism.

I am sure this post will most probably be ignored or I will be 'attacked' for being disloyal but for the record I do like the new series and am full of admiration for what RTD and co have done in bringing it back to the screen but for similar reasons Alrightmate has already mentioned it is flawed in many ways. Hopefully once the dust has settled after series one everyone can look back at it and give an honest appraisal, including RTD and the production team and see what can be can be learnt from those views.

So episode 12 is called Bad Wolf .....so unless RTD is winding us up as some have suggested, it appears that this storyarc is actually leading somewhere.....

Good stuff!

As predicted by me here.

:smartarse:

Salutations to you Fizzbin...we give you the gift of the air from our lungs.

So hopefully by ep 12 the mystery of the Bad Wolf will be resolved.

Or they'll make it a cliffhanger until Series 2.

You may well be right but got the impression that the regeneration might be the cliffhanger to the end of the series. RTD may choose to do a 'Buffy' or a 'X-Files' on us and keep this storyarc going over a few seasons.

Am hoping we will at least get a few answers by the end of this one though...

I with the pair of you on this. I have stated a few times that I thought the past two episodes were under par, and my reasons for thinking so.

I don't think anybody should be attacked for constructive criticism - it's not as if anybody is just posting "it's crap" and leaving it at that, hit-and-run style.

Both yourself and Alrightmate post some very good theories on here (as do many others) which all adds to the fun of the discussion. (Oh, and I didn't reply to your random thoughts posts Alrightmate because others had already spoken for me when they said how good they were.)

I'm still toying with the post aka-lucifer made about the Doctor and games, and also the Rose's DNA posts (amongst many others) to see if some kind of summary can be made of it all.

Say what you like, but I for one would hate to see Davros return!

As somebody commented, with him around they acted more like Ogrons than Daleks.

Oh, there will definitely be a cliff-hanger at the end of this series. The problem is, which one? It could be the Doctor being defeated, the regeneration or even the new Doctor stepping out of the Tardis after regenerating.

Personally, I'd have made the series so that at the end of series one, it looks like the Doctor is killed and dragged off into the Tardis. That way, if the series wasn't recommissioned for a second run, it all looks pretty conclusive to the new audience. It also leaves things open for another regeneration, of course.

Then the Christmas special would be 90 minutes and we could start with the regeneration and then get to see the new Doctor's colours in a story all of his own, leading us nicely into series two next year.

Is Gallifry the planet that's in the doctor who titles?

I didn't think there was a planet in the opening sequence? I thought the tardis came out of one vortex then went straight into another one.

I could be wrong, of course...

the tardis comes out of the first vortex, the camera spins round the tardis, showing a orange fire planet in the background, and then goes into another time vortex.

(to see the titles, go to www.tv-ark.org.uk then click on cult, and click on doctor who, titles at bottom of page.)

I see what you mean - it does look like a planet possibly, but I took it to be the 'opening' of the vortex so I really don't know.

Maybe someone could help us out on this?

I personally took the destruction of Gallifrey to mean it was removed from both time and space.

Being the Joss Wheddon fan that he is, I would expect RTD has seasonal arcs (possibly ememy of the season) as well as an ongoing story arc. Possibly the Bad Wolf stuff is the season story and the destruction of Gallifrey/Time War is the long runner.

I remember a column by RTD saying that he and Julie Gardner went gaga over the Firefly box-set. That had plenty of seeded reference to the overall story dropped in as background signage right from the pilot (It was the 'Black Sun Corp, I believe). The 1st season story - to be followed up in the upcoming film 'Serenity' was to do with a telepathic/telekenitic girl on the run from the authorities - but may well have ramifications to the main story arc futher down the line.

Buffy seemed to run on seasonal enemy arcs very efficently.

With Babylon 5, JMS took the longer approach - a planned 5 year arc, with ongoing sub-arcs, yet each season had a theme and even a title.

I guess the closest DW has done to this in the past is The Key to Time or the entropy laden season 18 with the E-Space trilogy. Or the Black Guardian trilogy in Season 20.
Season 23 was really a series of linked stories with an inserted framing device that came to bear on the final 2-parter.

You could make the case that Cartmel had something on the go from Dragonfire onwards - though some of it seemed a little clumsy and retro-fitted in a Star Trek lets kint this together style. Perhaps it we'd seen the planned S27, I'd be more convinced of the ongoing plan - or I could just read his book!

If RTD has taken on board the styles of Wheddon & JMS, I think we are in for a real treat... and as JMS often sites DW and Blakes' 7 as inspiration for how to do good TV Sci-fi it sort of seems right and proper too.