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Joseph vs Vana, tough call


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Old 17-12-2015, 02:21
allafix
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I think he avoided the risk last year. Mark is just doing what he was doing. Bianca wanted to start something new, with development and stock production, and storage, costs, and a market she had to penetrate

Joseph's Franchisse idea required people to accept his experience as a template and want to pay for it . He surely has the same probelm as Charleine - nothing substantive yet to sell - and Joe wants more for it.? Its expecting the chicken joint to appear, before the egg is laid. .

I agree I can't see what Lord Sugar gets from half owning a second plumbing business. Or what Joseph gains compared to losing half his profits for a small investment. . The money was in the franchisses, not spanners.

Vana should win as soon as someone expert in that field says she could achieve what she says. I can see lots of adverts for Leah and Susan , on the app too, and Mark trying to push it up the search engine lists. If the experts say Vana's doomed , then its Amplumb.
Charleine's idea relied on her name and image as a hardresser. She would have to create a high profile as a stylist before anything else could happen. Joseph was pushing a plumbing business model and that's a very different thing. His image and expertise as a plumber is not the key to success in this case. It's all about the branding of his idea. If his model could be shown to be profitable and replicable then it can be a successful franchise.
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Old 17-12-2015, 02:49
SwanGirl
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You must have missed last week's show. She already runs a dating website which she set up.
Well it's disappointing that we didn't see any of the interviewers question her regarding that business so we know a bit more about it. I'd be interested to know how successful and how big/small it is, if it's running at a profit etc. We got the information regarding Joseph and his business, it's annoying we didn't get a more in depth feel about Vana's.

That is what Joe had. He offered to sell franchisses, that cost more than anyone would make. His business plan was torn up. He's now offering regional expansion of his existing business. But that means he's still going to be running his existing business - unless he gifts half of that to Lord Sugar too - which would be foolish. If he keeps his existing business, he's got the same problem that killed Richard's plan - of split loyalties, and faces the same argument used against Luisa - that she couldn't run multiple companies. We don't actually know what will turn up as his final plan - I htink the clip shown showed him trying to work it out still.
Yeah, you're right there. Now that I think about it, perhaps had Charleine been willing to change her idea to setting up salons in the Plymouth and surrounding areas she MIGHT have been given a chance. Joseph's is the safer idea on paper, now that it's been moderated. I can't imagine it will turn over a huge profit, certainly not as much as Vana's if she did manage to make a success of her business but this situation is similar to last year where you had Bianca coming up with a business that if set up correctly, probably would turn over a very decent profit and then you had Mark's idea which was relatively low risk and a safe return.

I guess LAS might be willing to take a chance on Vana's business depending on how her idea is received but I still have a feeling Joseph will win.
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Old 17-12-2015, 03:03
thenetworkbabe
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Charleine's idea relied on her name and image as a hardresser. She would have to create a high profile as a stylist before anything else could happen. Joseph was pushing a plumbing business model and that's a very different thing. His image and expertise as a plumber is not the key to success in this case. It's all about the branding of his idea. If his model could be shown to be profitable and replicable then it can be a successful franchise.
Indeed. But Joe the plumber also has to have a model that works really well, better than other models, and to have the results and fame to sell it . He was asking more for access to the secrets of Joe the plumber, than the people he sold to would be making. It was essentially as much hot air as Charleine was offering. Thats why he's now not offering it - and its not clear what he is offering - except an expansion of a local business.
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Old 17-12-2015, 03:35
Alrightmate
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I don't get the sense that it is a tough call.

I really can't imagine AS going into the plumbing business.
As mentioned in the post above Joseph is seeking to expand his already existing business. It's not like a fresh brand new business which is the sort of thing AS sees as a worthwhile challenge.

Usually he also likes the business proposals to have a technological edge to them.

Gary's proposal was a joke, and Charleines hairdressing thing didn't look likely either. If AS isn't going to want to get involved making cupcakes then I don't see hairdressing lighting his fire either.
Any 'female' oriented business idea hardly ever appeals to AS. Doctor Leah and her cosmetic surgery business was different though. It was a bit more high end and technological.

If you're a woman and you want to set up a restaurant business, or dressmaking business, don't go onto The Apprentice. It just isn't going to happen with AS.

I'm quietly confident that Vana has won this.
Her idea for a dating site, which I suppose I'd categorise as a female type business I referred to above, looks like it needs some serious tweaking to the gamification aspect to it which was mentioned in the episode, but this has a technological angle to it, and I definitely get the sense of things going the same way as the series did with Leah a few years ago.
Vana's idea has more potential too in terms of its reach, which could be global. I can imagine AS saying that Joseph's idea would take years to implement as he slowly expands, whilst Vana's idea could have the potential be a huge success very quickly.
I can't see AS sitting around waiting for a plumbing business to slowly expand out its regional county in the UK. It would be a long hard slog for relatively little return compared to something else AS might want to stick his fingers into which he'd be interested in the benefits of on a global scale..

I simply can't imagine Alan Sugar getting involved in the plumbing trade.
I just don't see it at all.

I can even imagine how the final episode will end, with Alan saying 'he's struggling', . On one hand he knows that there's good easy money to be made in plumbing, but on the other hand he likes to take a punt with something which has an element of risk to it which could potentially yield huge returns.
Then Joseph will be fired as AS makes the point that sometimes you have to take a gamble in business and commend Joseph for achieving what he already has and that he's young and will go on to be very successful in his own business pursuits.
Everything points towards a Vana victory to me.

It's also worth bearing in mind that in recent years AS has become very interested in online technological business developments.
When it comes to contestants wanting to set up a traditional trade based business in real bricks and mortar premises, then they may as well need not apply.
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Old 17-12-2015, 03:57
Alrightmate
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I think he avoided the risk last year. Mark is just doing what he was doing. Bianca wanted to start something new, with development and stock production, and storage, costs, and a market she had to penetrate

Joseph's Franchisse idea required people to accept his experience as a template and want to pay for it . He surely has the same probelm as Charleine - nothing substantive yet to sell - and Joe wants more for it.? Its expecting the chicken joint to appear, before the egg is laid. .

I agree I can't see what Lord Sugar gets from half owning a second plumbing business. Or what Joseph gains compared to losing half his profits for a small investment. . The money was in the franchisses, not spanners.

Vana should win as soon as someone expert in that field says she could achieve what she says. I can see lots of adverts for Leah and Susan , on the app too, and Mark trying to push it up the search engine lists. If the experts say Vana's doomed , then its Amplumb.
That's true. Mark's idea no matter how dull it was had a technological edge to it and had more potential globally, a bit like Vana.
Bianca wanted to do something which would take time and would involve the cost you mentioned in your post, a bit like Joseph.
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Old 17-12-2015, 05:43
Ray_Burn
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I somehow think Vana, purely because she's had a good edit all series. Surely producers/editors know who's won, if not the candidates, when they start broadcasting.

Vana should call her app 'Sugar Snap'.
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Old 17-12-2015, 06:12
lammtarra
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Risk/reward ratios point to Vana winning, as do the possible synergies with previous winners.

Though I guess we ought to remember that Lord Sugar has a lot of money in property so it is at least possible there is a tie-up with plumbing, though perhaps not in Peterborough.

There are a couple of problems with Vana's idea. Gamification sounds more likely to attract men than women, and attracting male gamer nerds is perhaps not the biggest problem dating platforms face. Though it must be admitted that an awful lot of women play Candy Crush and the like. And Vana herself believes the key to attracting women is to attract "quality men" first.

But it is reminiscent of Alan Partridge pitching ever more absurd ideas for game shows. A dating app for business graduates; no, for lawyers; no, for people who want to mess around for a couple of hours before seeing a photo.

Gamification of dating sounds like Vana has taken two buzzwords and thrown them together. What is more, I do not think she understands what gamification means. Normally it means giving points or prizes for achieving milestones (eg logging in every day or answering X questions or trying Y potential partners) whereas Vana described literally playing a game with an unknown partner in order to reveal their photograph. It is absurd.

(Cynics might also add that online dating comes with the built-in prizes of sex and romance.)

But the main issue, as others have noted, is that it just is not very clear what Vana herself brings to the table, other than her desire to be rich. Ricky Martin could recruit; Dr Leah could inject botox; Vana will need to buy in expertise.

Turning it round, apart from a quarter of a million quid, what value does Lord Sugar add? Why doesn't Vana get a bank loan, or even ask the bank of mum and dad for help? Perhaps they'd see it as too risky.

In Mike's interview, Vana's cash burn was £30,000 a month so she'd need quickly to acquire 6,000 clients paying (say) £60 a year to offset that. Otherwise she is back at the Job Centre inside a year and perhaps less. Vana budgeted £140,000 to develop the app but how much to maintain it as bugs are found in use, and additional functionality needed and she needs a web developer and one each for Android and Apple phones? Sure, if it takes off like Tinder, she's minted, but only if she is still in the game.

And therein lies the problem. If Vana could code the app herself, she'd save £140,000 straight off, even on her own figures: more than half the investment and five months' worth of cash burn. But she can't. If Lord Sugar owned a cloud hosting company ... but he doesn't.

Back to Joe. Lord Sugar gets a stake in the existing company which limits his downside (although probably most of the tradesman seen in The Final Five were self-employed subcontractors and not employees). The question might be: can Lord Sugar give the new company a sweetheart contract based around existing Amsprop holdings? If so, that would provide a base for Joe to expand outside Peterborough (and presumably into London).

When I started writing this, I thought Vana wins. Now I think it is Joe who is in front.
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Old 17-12-2015, 06:59
RoseAnne
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I don't think it"s a good idea at all as playing a series of on-line games to get to see part of the face of a potential date sounds boring as hell to me, but I'm way too old to be in Vana's target market. . As for the name "playdate" ugh!
I await Sunday's show with interest to see if we get any detail as opposed to just show and no substance.
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Old 17-12-2015, 07:24
Vientre
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LS sees something in Joseph that reminds him of himself at a similar age and he has a business plan that will make money albeit slowly. Vana has a plan with more risk but potential far greater rewards shorter term. As LS says hes a gambler he can certainly afford to take a punt with £250,000. I see him going with Vana for that reason, I also feel Vana with come over more professional in her presentation.
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Old 17-12-2015, 07:53
UnrealityTV
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I don't think it"s a good idea at all as playing a series of on-line games to get to see part of the face of a potential date sounds boring as hell to me, but I'm way too old to be in Vana's target market. . As for the name "playdate" ugh!
I await Sunday's show with interest to see if we get any detail as opposed to just show and no substance.
I'm in my 40s and, post-divorce, met my current (long-term) girlfriend via internet dating - although it was 'old-fashioned' web site, not an app.

We were watching TA last night and I asked her if she'd have spent a day 'playing games' just to see my photo. She nearly fell off the chair laughing. In fairness I wouldn't have bothered either. In this day and age people don't have the time or inclination, they have short attention spans and want instant gratification, which is precisely why apps like Tinder are so successful.

Much as one shouldn't judge a book by its cover, we inevitably judge people on how they look. Imagine spending however long 'playing games' only to find that the other person has a face like a welder's bench? You'd try it once, go "Pfft, what a waste of time" and go elsewhere.

(Indeed the first photo my GF posted on her profile was awful - it was just a bad photo, we all have them - and, while I really liked the look of her profile, it wasn't until she posted a much better one that I realised that I also found her very attractive and got in touch. That might make me sound vacuous, but it's how we humans work. I'm really glad she posted the better one because, a very long time later, I still think she's awesome )

Although I hate the name too, I like the idea behind the idea of Vana's app - in effect you're supposed to be getting to know if you have common ground first, theoretically making appearance less important - but I still think it will sink without trace very quickly.

I think if Vana wins she will disappear within a year, if Joseph wins his (probably modified by Sralan) business idea will still be going several years down the line.
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Old 17-12-2015, 08:25
Henry Price
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On past form Lord Sugar is not a gambler. He put most of his own money into property which was always going to be safe. He backs things that he understands, plain and simple.

Vana's proposal is high risk. It will take a bigger man than Lord Sugar to make it work. he can afford to lose £250k and shrug his shoulders, but it's not his nature.
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Old 17-12-2015, 08:32
MinaH
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I have a far superior idea to Vana's. Rather than mix gaming with internet dating why not mix internet dating with Haagen Daaz?
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Old 17-12-2015, 09:38
Absintheminded
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I think it comes down to Vana's design of the app and how she sees it. I for one would cannot see how a majority of people would waste time playing lots of mini games before seeing the person in the app. If it doesn't have to be this mystery reveal she might have a chance.
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Old 17-12-2015, 09:54
stevvy1986
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Joseph may not make as much money as quickly, but you'll never not need a plumber, whereas a dating site isn't strictly necessary for example and could easilyflop, BUT if Vana gets it right she could make a fortune, if she can make money quickly enough to not burn the cash in no time.

I reckon he'll go for Joseph though. The burn rate could be the killer for Vana which gives Joseph the win.
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Old 17-12-2015, 11:19
Mitu_Pappi
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Vanas business plan could have been torn to shreds. They didnt.

No questions asked about

Will the app be free or to purchase
Will you generate income from the games if app is free
Will you keep asking for cash after each game until the final reveal of the photo
Who will write the games. How much will it cost for existing games
People dont like new games. Existing games will cost a lot
People dont like in app purchases. What then
Etc etc.

She got let off as they wanted a female in the final and Charlene was shite.
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Old 17-12-2015, 11:28
CGG_12
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Vanas business plan could have been torn to shreds. They didnt.

No questions asked about

Will the app be free or to purchase
Will you generate income from the games if app is free
Will you keep asking for cash after each game until the final reveal of the photo
Who will write the games. How much will it cost for existing games
People dont like new games. Existing games will cost a lot
People dont like in app purchases. What then
Etc etc.

She got let off as they wanted a female in the final and Charlene was shite.
Each Interview lasts for an hour. we see a mere snippet of each

I suspect she was torn apart much more but she was edited in a positive light retrospectively as she was ultimately making the final
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Old 17-12-2015, 11:51
Mitu_Pappi
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Each Interview lasts for an hour. we see a mere snippet of each

I suspect she was torn apart much more but she was edited in a positive light retrospectively as she was ultimately making the final
Yes its a bit of a farce the whole thing
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Old 17-12-2015, 12:15
homer2012
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I called the final two and heres my view on it all.

If sugar wants a safe and steady business then joe is the right man.

If he wants to take a risk but could end up with a dating version of facebook then vana is the way forward.

250k is a drop in the ocean for the lord and i think vana will be the winner.
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Old 17-12-2015, 12:22
brangdon
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We were watching TA last night and I asked her if she'd have spent a day 'playing games' just to see my photo. She nearly fell off the chair laughing.
That part I would tweak so it is more like 2 minutes than a day to see a photo. Then you have to play more to interact with the other person, ideally through the medium of games. This should create some shared experience, and get you invested in the relationship early. Eventually you'd get to interact more directly. I suspect that as soon as you reached the point where you could exchange emails, you'd do that and drop the app, unless the app made conversation so easy that you didn't need to.

Some of this reminds me of the "Russian Bride" type websites where you, in effect, have to pay to send emails to women. Except that, rather than paying, you'd have to put the effort into game-playing. I guess the women would like the idea of the men having to jump through hoops to get to them. The time spent shows a degree of commitment.

I think it could work, and if it did it could be a big win. The problem for me is that it's not a great fit for the show. It might need more than £250k to keep it going long enough to succeed. If it burns out after 6 months, a normal venture capitalist would just shrug their shoulders and go onto the next idea. For Lord Sugar it would be an embarrassment. Wouldn't it? Or would it be OK for the show to have a spectacular failure on its record?
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Old 17-12-2015, 12:49
rosset
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That part I would tweak so it is more like 2 minutes than a day to see a photo. Then you have to play more to interact with the other person, ideally through the medium of games. This should create some shared experience, and get you invested in the relationship early. Eventually you'd get to interact more directly. I suspect that as soon as you reached the point where you could exchange emails, you'd do that and drop the app, unless the app made conversation so easy that you didn't need to.

Some of this reminds me of the "Russian Bride" type websites where you, in effect, have to pay to send emails to women. Except that, rather than paying, you'd have to put the effort into game-playing. I guess the women would like the idea of the men having to jump through hoops to get to them. The time spent shows a degree of commitment.

I think it could work, and if it did it could be a big win. The problem for me is that it's not a great fit for the show. It might need more than £250k to keep it going long enough to succeed. If it burns out after 6 months, a normal venture capitalist would just shrug their shoulders and go onto the next idea. For Lord Sugar it would be an embarrassment. Wouldn't it? Or would it be OK for the show to have a spectacular failure on its record?
I suppose you could give both people the choice of when to see the photo. I think the Russian websites are offering men free at the moment. There are much more ladies who want to pay to come out of mother Russia
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Old 17-12-2015, 12:51
MinaH
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I think the gaming aspect to internet dating is juvenile. It might be okay for lads but not for girls in general. Seriously some people want to talk rather than play silly games.
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Old 17-12-2015, 12:52
Mrs Spratt
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I think, as someone else has said, Vana picked up on the word 'gamification', which sounds very state of the art, but didn't say anything that suggested she understood the concept.

The word I didn't hear used was 'monetisation', which is really the holy grail of online businesses. How do you get people to pay for content when it's available for free elsewhere? This is something newspapers have been grappling with for the last few years, and the Sun has just decided to give up trying to get people to pay for online content and make money out of it some other way. If Rupert Murdoch's empire couldn't work out a way to make people pay, I don't see Vana and Lord Sugar's £250,000 getting very far. The way most free sites do it is ads, and you join to get rid of the ads, but aren't you more likely to go to a free site where you can see people's photos? (Or at least, the photos people have chosen to put on the site).

And the name PlayDate is awful, though I guess that can be changed.

Also in this day and age wouldn't people search on Facebook etc to try and find people's pictures if they were that interested?
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Old 17-12-2015, 14:55
MinaH
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Old 17-12-2015, 15:12
Mitu_Pappi
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The name playdate screams sex site.
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Old 17-12-2015, 15:15
slouchingthatch
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I think, as someone else has said, Vana picked up on the word 'gamification', which sounds very state of the art, but didn't say anything that suggested she understood the concept.

The word I didn't hear used was 'monetisation', which is really the holy grail of online businesses. How do you get people to pay for content when it's available for free elsewhere? This is something newspapers have been grappling with for the last few years, and the Sun has just decided to give up trying to get people to pay for online content and make money out of it some other way. If Rupert Murdoch's empire couldn't work out a way to make people pay, I don't see Vana and Lord Sugar's £250,000 getting very far. The way most free sites do it is ads, and you join to get rid of the ads, but aren't you more likely to go to a free site where you can see people's photos? (Or at least, the photos people have chosen to put on the site).

And the name PlayDate is awful, though I guess that can be changed.

Also in this day and age wouldn't people search on Facebook etc to try and find people's pictures if they were that interested?
The brand name is in many ways the least important part of the final (even though it's a big part of what we see). As you say, a name is easily changed - and Sugar has showed in the past (with Leah Totton) that he's happy to name his new partner and then change the business name later. The fundamentals of the business plan are far more important.
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