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Joseph vs Vana, tough call


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Old 18-12-2015, 19:29
lammtarra
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I think it works very well. She'd have hardly got to the final if it didn't. At least she has applied herself and come up with a somewhat unique and innovative idea as opposed to just using LA's name to sell a plumbing franchise. I don't see Joseph's idea as that different to Charleine's to be honest.
Joe's idea was the same as Charleine's: you are right; the difference is that Joe had the wit to accept the criticism when its impracticality was pointed out and change his plan on the fly.

The question for me is whether Vana will similarly tweak her plan in Sunday's final.
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Old 19-12-2015, 00:51
thenetworkbabe
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Joe's idea was the same as Charleine's: you are right; the difference is that Joe had the wit to accept the criticism when its impracticality was pointed out and change his plan on the fly.

The question for me is whether Vana will similarly tweak her plan in Sunday's final.
So did Charleine.

She had the wits beforehand to note that no one outside the M25 had won, and that profit margins might be bigger in London. As soon as she moved from that , she was sent home because her proposal wasn't lucrative enough, and probably because expanding locally meant doing so in Plymouth - which is is literally at the ends of the country. Joseph's advantage may be he's a lot nearer to Sugar HQ- lathough Vana is about as central as he could be, already.

Vana needs to tweak her figures and revenue raising. Joe has to start from scratch - without his original franchissing scheme he can only offer to employ more plumbers - till he comes up with some sort of new idea.
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Old 19-12-2015, 05:55
lammtarra
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So did Charleine.

She had the wits beforehand to note that no one outside the M25 had won, and that profit margins might be bigger in London. As soon as she moved from that , she was sent home because her proposal wasn't lucrative enough, and probably because expanding locally meant doing so in Plymouth - which is is literally at the ends of the country. Joseph's advantage may be he's a lot nearer to Sugar HQ- lathough Vana is about as central as he could be, already.

Vana needs to tweak her figures and revenue raising. Joe has to start from scratch - without his original franchissing scheme he can only offer to employ more plumbers - till he comes up with some sort of new idea.
Peterborough is not in London, even if it is not as far as Plymouth. Further still is Vana who, according to the programme's web site, lives in Barcelona, although I suppose she could move.

Charleine's and Joseph's franchising schemes were stillborn, as they had nothing to offer franchisees and the numbers did not stack up. Joe threw his plan out of the window; Charleine did not, even though Claude had advised her to expand closer to home.
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Old 19-12-2015, 06:15
lammtarra
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Who will win?

Vana's internet dating might depend on what the experts say. We've seen in past series that Lord Sugar, despite his technical background and prolific use of Twitter, leans heavily on his others when it comes to matters online: Bordan's demolition of Baggs the Brand; Mark's dismissal of a rival scheme last year. We have already seen in the interviews that Claude and Mike worried about her cash burn rate.

For Joe, success might depend on what his plan has morphed into, after the franchise idea was dropped at the last minute. I'm not in the trade so take this with a pinch of salt but I'd imagine his best chance of success is to concentrate on the commercial market and try to pick up maintenance contracts with property developers and insurance companies. Domestic jobs may pay more but I suspect most of us, when we spring a leak, look online or in the local paper, rather than have a regular plumber. The commercial side can guarantee Lord Sugar's return; domestic jobs on the side can put jam on Joe's bread and butter.

So for Sunday's final: what do the experts think about Vana? Does Joe's launch target consumers or trade? (And off-screen, can Lord Sugar pre-arrange contracts with property developers or his own company?)
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Old 19-12-2015, 06:28
hisdogspot
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I like Joseph, but I just can't see 'products' man Sugar going into plumbing.

I hope I'm wrong, but I think Vana will win this
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Old 19-12-2015, 07:51
Alrightmate
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I like Joseph, but I just can't see 'products' man Sugar going into plumbing.

I hope I'm wrong, but I think Vana will win this
That's how I currently feel. I too just can't see Sugar getting into plumbing.
I mean can anyone really see that happening?

I'm now back to thinking that Vana will win, but that her business proposal will need a radical change to the core essence of what it was presented to us as, or I think the business will fail even if Vana wins the show.
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Old 19-12-2015, 09:22
Mitu_Pappi
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Vana has won this. In an advert it shows Mr Sugar pointing to the fired person and Vana looks at Joe with a smile on her face.

Its just a show. Vanas playdate will never see the light f the day.
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Old 19-12-2015, 11:23
MinaH
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It is not just plumbing is it? Plumbing was his first trade. He clearly has larger aspirations by setting up and running his own business. All this by hard graft and coal face experience rather than learnt in theory at university and MBA school. The interviewer said Vana's business plan read like a second rate MBA exercise. No where in Vana's interview or business plan did she demonstrate or refer to her own competence in business or setting up and running a business.

Overall Joseph performed second best to Richard in the exercises but Richard is not really a team player and his Business Plan was utter junk.
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Old 19-12-2015, 12:01
slouchingthatch
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Vana has won this. In an advert it shows Mr Sugar pointing to the fired person and Vana looks at Joe with a smile on her face.

Its just a show. Vanas playdate will never see the light f the day.
They shoot two versions of the final boardroom, one showing each candidate winning, as at the time of filming the decision has not been made. So I wouldn't read too much in to what is shown in the previews.
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Old 19-12-2015, 12:03
slouchingthatch
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It is not just plumbing is it? Plumbing was his first trade. He clearly has larger aspirations by setting up and running his own business. All this by hard graft and coal face experience rather than learnt in theory at university and MBA school. The interviewer said Vana's business plan read like a second rate MBA exercise. No where in Vana's interview or business plan did she demonstrate or refer to her own competence in business or setting up and running a business.

Overall Joseph performed second best to Richard in the exercises but Richard is not really a team player and his Business Plan was utter junk.
Claude's comment about Vana's plan was more grandstanding for the cameras than anything else, I suspect, in an attempt to unsettle her and see what she was really made of.

I think you're being unfair on Vana. She has set up two online businesses, one of which centred on dating. So to say she has no competence or experience in setting up a business is untrue. And just because we weren't shown something in the interviews doesn't mean that the question wasn't asked and answered satisfactorily - it just doesn't make for particularly compelling TV to see those moments when the candidates perform well in the interviews.
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Old 19-12-2015, 12:15
MinaH
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Claude's comment about Vana's plan was more grandstanding for the cameras than anything else, I suspect, in an attempt to unsettle her and see what she was really made of.

I think you're being unfair on Vana. She has set up two online businesses, one of which centred on dating. So to say she has no competence or experience in setting up a business is untrue. And just because we weren't shown something in the interviews doesn't mean that the question wasn't asked and answered satisfactorily - it just doesn't make for particularly compelling TV to see those moments when the candidates perform well in the interviews.
I am not convinced with regard Vana and her business plan. But both Vana and Joseph have to perform in the final week including performing in front of a mock company general meeting + having one or two days to demonstrate their idea. So there is still all to play for, but ... I am yet to be convinced by Vana.

Ps: Biggest shock of the series was just how bad Richard's business plan was.
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Old 19-12-2015, 12:17
slouchingthatch
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I am not convinced with regard Vana and her business plan. But both Vana and Joseph have to perform in the final week including performing in front of a mock company general meeting + having one or two days to demonstrate their idea. So there is still all to play for, but ... I am yet to be convinced by Vana.
For sure, Vana has the bigger job to do to prove her business is viable. But who wins is as much about the due diligence process as about performance on the task itself. We don't know enough yet to say either way - from what we know from interviews, to call it now one way or the other would be foolhardy.

Richard's plan was actually okay -- it was the way he complicated it and his refusal to decouple it from his existing business that really scuppered him.
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Old 19-12-2015, 12:20
brangdon
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That's how I currently feel. I too just can't see Sugar getting into plumbing.
I mean can anyone really see that happening?
Do you think it would be good for the show if something as mundane as plumbing got the money? And if so, would that influence Lord Sugar much?

Similarly, if Vana's venture burns out after 6 months, would such a failure be an embarrassment to the show, and would Lord Sugar care?

I imagine the show would prefer if every winner was a success. Then again, I don't know how many more series it has left, so maybe reputation doesn't matter much.
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Old 19-12-2015, 12:32
slouchingthatch
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Do you think it would be good for the show if something as mundane as plumbing got the money? And if so, would that influence Lord Sugar much?

Similarly, if Vana's venture burns out after 6 months, would such a failure be an embarrassment to the show, and would Lord Sugar care?

I imagine the show would prefer if every winner was a success. Then again, I don't know how many more series it has left, so maybe reputation doesn't matter much.
I don't really think that the business needs to be a success at all. After all, how many viewers know or care how Tom Pellereau's business is doing? Or Ricky Martin's? Or Leah's or Mark's?

Paramount to Sugar, I suspect, is that he doesn't invest in a venture that might damage his personal reputation by being associated with something that loses other people money (remember Tom Gearing's wine hedge fund?) or could land him on the front page of the papers because, say, someone's gas boilers have exploded. That was one of the reasons why it was so surprising that Leah won - to me, that demonstrated how UNinvestable Luisa's plan was - and it's one of the question marks I have about Joseph's plan. After all, plumbers don't exactly have a great reputation with consumers, do they?

The reality is that businesses - even some good ones - fail every day. Just because Sugar has provided some cash and a bit of publicity to start them up is no guarantee of success.

The more I think about Vana's plan, the less risky it looks - at least from Sugar's perspective. Invest up front, get a working concept, go for a second round of venture capital funding (to get it launched) and quietly back out with a tidy profit, leaving the risk to the VCs. Like Leah's business plan, Vana has the opportunity to present a clear exit strategy for Sugar. This whole "Vana will burn the £250k in 6 months" thing, while true, is a bit of a red herring if you ask me.
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Old 19-12-2015, 12:38
lammtarra
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Claude's comment about Vana's plan was more grandstanding for the cameras than anything else, I suspect, in an attempt to unsettle her and see what she was really made of.

I think you're being unfair on Vana. She has set up two online businesses, one of which centred on dating. So to say she has no competence or experience in setting up a business is untrue. And just because we weren't shown something in the interviews doesn't mean that the question wasn't asked and answered satisfactorily - it just doesn't make for particularly compelling TV to see those moments when the candidates perform well in the interviews.
Ah, but you may be unfair on Claude, who is the anti-Sugar when it comes to regard for education. Here is Lord Sugar opening the University of West London's Claude Littner Business School.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FobY37wGYeU

In America it is apparently common for MBA graduates to found companies based on their theses, so Claude may well have meant it not as a criticism of Vana but as an appreciation that her business plan was thorough.

Back on topic, I'm vacillating between the two finalists. Joe is the safe bet, and predictable too. Lord Sugar ought to be able to calculate the likely return on his investment to within a percentage point or two.

Vana will doubtless be successful one day but I am not sure this is the right vehicle.

Charleine's been ridiculed for the number of times she vowed to succeed by working her socks off but I'm not sure Vana's assurances to Lord Sugar were any more substantive -- of course, it may well be that technical discussions of cash flows and so on were edited out as too dull to inflict on viewers.
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Old 19-12-2015, 15:36
Sherlock_Holmes
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Overall Joseph performed second best to Richard in the exercises but Richard is not really a team player and his Business Plan was utter junk.
Based on what criteria

Both Joseph and Vana have the same amount of wins and losses (with Joseph losing 4 out of the last 5 tasks). The only difference is week 3, if the girls had won that week then Vana would also have a (much) better PM record.

To me, he only impressed in week 6 when Elle had her total breakdown (and it was his area of expertise). In that respect he reminds me a bit of Stella, good in the first half of the series and then slowly going downhill (birthday cake, real estate contracts, pitching).

Personally, Vana is the better candidate but it is all about the business plan and Joseph should probably win based on that (if this was the final in the old format, Vana would have walked it).
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Old 20-12-2015, 01:25
thenetworkbabe
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I am not convinced with regard Vana and her business plan. But both Vana and Joseph have to perform in the final week including performing in front of a mock company general meeting + having one or two days to demonstrate their idea. So there is still all to play for, but ... I am yet to be convinced by Vana.

Ps: Biggest shock of the series was just how bad Richard's business plan was.
Not really - he's been waffling incomprehensibly much of the series. There was a report of something medical going on - but I didn't read it.
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Old 20-12-2015, 01:35
thenetworkbabe
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Based on what criteria

Both Joseph and Vana have the same amount of wins and losses (with Joseph losing 4 out of the last 5 tasks). The only difference is week 3, if the girls had won that week then Vana would also have a (much) better PM record.

To me, he only impressed in week 6 when Elle had her total breakdown (and it was his area of expertise). In that respect he reminds me a bit of Stella, good in the first half of the series and then slowly going downhill (birthday cake, real estate contracts, pitching).

Personally, Vana is the better candidate but it is all about the business plan and Joseph should probably win based on that (if this was the final in the old format, Vana would have walked it).
Depends what the job was . You could exchange him for Lee, but probably not any other series winner before Stella - who seemed to have nothing to do anyway. Tim had a degree and management experience.Michelle and Simon fitted their markets and Michelle had technical expertise. Yasmina had a degree from the LSE and maangement skills.
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Old 20-12-2015, 05:15
Makson
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Looking forward to seeing King Joseph crowned later on
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Old 20-12-2015, 05:40
Alrightmate
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Do you think it would be good for the show if something as mundane as plumbing got the money? And if so, would that influence Lord Sugar much?

Similarly, if Vana's venture burns out after 6 months, would such a failure be an embarrassment to the show, and would Lord Sugar care?

I imagine the show would prefer if every winner was a success. Then again, I don't know how many more series it has left, so maybe reputation doesn't matter much.
I suppose it could be good for the show in a way, if you think of it in terms of the show wanting to put out a particular message. Such as promoting the idea that apprenticeships in traditional trades are of important value. It could be that this year that is an idea which is a positive one to promote.

But in terms of Alan Sugar outside of the show I tend to associate him more with technology based businesses, Plumbing just doesn't seem to be a thing he would get involved with, in the same way it was unlikely to see him getting involved in a cupcake business.
In recent years he has tended to favour businesses which are geared towards having an online presence, often where a technological edge is important to the website.
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Old 20-12-2015, 09:17
Namiko_Day
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Personally I like vana's idea I think she is on to something and the thing with lord sugar is he likes to gamble. Although I do like Joseph
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Old 20-12-2015, 12:12
minxymoo
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Looking forward to seeing King Joseph crowned later on
im pretty sure when sir alan says 'your hired' his finger points left and joe is sitting on the left.
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Old 20-12-2015, 15:58
morraine
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Personally I like vana's idea I think she is on to something and the thing with lord sugar is he likes to gamble. Although I do like Joseph
The only way i think her idea would work is if she targeted the service at more of a geek/nerd/intellect market place (think Sheldon from Big Bang Theory) and created intellectual games that...........(DELETED. Sorry this idea that ive just had is too good to post here for free)

But my wife and i were talking about Vana's idea and came to the conclusion that 80 percent of general population couples may have very different ideas of what a fun mobile game maybe and so matching up couple's based on gaming will not do a very good job for most people.

So this site has to be niche marketed at a subset of society with a very clever matching premise mixed in with gaming.

But its still going to take at least 2-3 million and developer founders who know there stuff.

Tinder is actually owned by match.com so obviously they could just let it run for free for two years with a almost bottomless pit of money to market and run the thing and then figure out how they would make money from it later if every it would or not but also just protect that idea as well from competitors.
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Old 20-12-2015, 19:27
.Kooky.
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Similarly to Bianca last year. The more interesting, unique business plan, but requiring much from effort and money from LS than he would prefer. He will go with the safer option - Mark last year, and this time around, Joe.
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Old 20-12-2015, 19:46
JohnStannard
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I Would like Joseph to win
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