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So, Joseph can pitch his current business but Richard cannot?


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Old 17-12-2015, 00:10
SweetSyrup
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Forgive my potential ignorance here, but neither of these businesses set out to re-invent the wheel. One was a plumbing company (Joseph's current profession), one was an online marketing company (Richard's current profession).

Richard got torn to shreds for basically including a bit of waffle from his current company. His only real crime here was laziness and not putting a new spin on what he currently does. Most marketing companies perform the exact same function - produce waffle in slightly varying forms. How exactly is Joseph's company standing out from the crowd? Do they tap dance as they fix your sink? Seriously, give me a break.

These are two established types of business, frankly any company description in the business plan is pure window dressing. Joseph got through because his current company makes more money than Richard's - it's a more proven formula. Richard has proven time and again he is more competent than Joseph and able to adapt to a broad calibre of clientele. Again, the show's "business partner" prize shows up the format as totally pointless.
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Old 17-12-2015, 00:16
Absintheminded
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Quite simply, Joseph WAS pitching his exisiting business. LS would parttake in the success the company already enjoys.

Richard wasn't. He was pitching a new company; albeit completely similar to his old one; which he wouldn't give away.

There is a distinct difference there, although it wasn't made very clear in that mess of an edit. I thought the whole episode was pretty poor.
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Old 17-12-2015, 00:24
jtnorth
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Both Joe and Charlene we're expanding the businesses they already run, but presumably that they own outright. Richard was offering a 'new' business because his brother owns half the current one, and Lord Sugar doesn't want other people he doesn't know being given half his 250,000. That's how I took it anyway. You have to go with a business that is all yours.
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Old 17-12-2015, 00:32
CrowleySr
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Both Joe and Charlene we're expanding the businesses they already run, but presumably that they own outright. Richard was offering a 'new' business because his brother owns half the current one, and Lord Sugar doesn't want other people he doesn't know being given half his 250,000. That's how I took it anyway. You have to go with a business that is all yours.
No, it has to be a completely new business. The problem is Richard's brother may have grounds to sue if Richard and Sugar take the same business model and go it alone

Similar to Jordan a couple of years ago
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Old 17-12-2015, 00:33
CGG_12
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David tweeted this tonight in response to what you can submit for your plan

"You had to formulate a new business but could adapt your current business and form a new one. "

That's what Joseph is doing
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Old 17-12-2015, 00:50
thenetworkbabe
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Quite simply, Joseph WAS pitching his exisiting business. LS would parttake in the success the company already enjoys.

Richard wasn't. He was pitching a new company; albeit completely similar to his old one; which he wouldn't give away.

There is a distinct difference there, although it wasn't made very clear in that mess of an edit. I thought the whole episode was pretty poor.
More bizarrely Joseph pitched a grandiose plan for franchises of his business model - but that fell apart - so he's ended up offering some sort of expansion of his own plumbing business . Though its not clear how he presents that. Lots of top busines people won't wnat to see how he plans to plumb a few miles away too, . It may end up as some hybrid plan we still haven't seen

Charleine was sent home for offering something too large and told to offer some more local expansion. She was then dismissed. There's zero difference in what she was finally offering and what Joe now is. Both ended up offering to expand what they did now. The only difference is Lord Sugar turned her down, as soon as she mentioned Plymouth - he thinks the world ends at Clapham Junction.

Worse what is Joe offering? Lord Sugar isn't going to get half his existing business. So is it half of the next expansion? And if Joe continues to run both, isn't he offering to do what Richard was sent home for - splitting his attention between an existing business and a cloned one?
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Old 17-12-2015, 01:13
jtnorth
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No, it has to be a completely new business. The problem is Richard's brother may have grounds to sue if Richard and Sugar take the same business model and go it alone

Similar to Jordan a couple of years ago
Oh, OK, I didn't quite get it, thanks.
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Old 17-12-2015, 01:28
allafix
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No, it has to be a completely new business. The problem is Richard's brother may have grounds to sue if Richard and Sugar take the same business model and go it alone

Similar to Jordan a couple of years ago
There was no unique business model to sue over. His business is a marketing consultancy. No one can sue someone for creating another marketing consultancy. Obviously they couldn't have used the same terrible mountaineering analogy.
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Old 17-12-2015, 01:30
MinaH
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Richard on so many levels shot himself in the foot. Only his brilliance in the various rounds kept him to the final three. But his business plan was overhyped and a copy of something he already had with his brother.
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Old 17-12-2015, 02:03
Mrs Spratt
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The discussion with Richard seemed to come down to something i've heard on Dragon's Den a few times - someone isn't the outright owner of the business they're pitching, so in effect can only offer a share of a share.

There didn't seem to be any doubt that Joseph owned his business outright, and therefore could develop it in any way he chose, in partnership with anyone he wanted to offer a share to.

I was surprised Sugar went for an internet start up business run by someone with a lot of academic qualifications, which he often sneers at. Vana's business projections seemed as optimistic, if not more optimistic, as Charleine's, to me. There are probably people working on a game for their internet dating sites to beat her to it.
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Old 17-12-2015, 02:11
allafix
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Charleine's business relied on her reputation as a hairdresser being of value, which it isn't. It would take her years to establish herself as a top hairdresser and so start an academy and franchise her brand. It was pure fantasy. Vana has a unique idea, combining dating and gaming. It has credibility and potential but is extremely risky.
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Old 17-12-2015, 02:16
Mrs Spratt
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Maybe - but it's not a unique idea now it's been publicised. Her business model was heavily critiqued in the interviews because she expected to be in profit too soon.Still, it's Sugar's money so I guess if he thinks he might win big he'll invest.
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Old 17-12-2015, 02:27
allafix
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Maybe - but it's not a unique idea now it's been publicised. Her business model was heavily critiqued in the interviews because she expected to be in profit too soon.Still, it's Sugar's money so I guess if he thinks he might win big he'll invest.
Don't forget what we saw tonight happened months ago. Anyone else picking up on her idea would be starting from scratch.

Yes, it's extremely high risk, but even if Sugar lost all £250K on it he can write that off against tax on other profits his businesses make.
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Old 17-12-2015, 02:43
Mrs Spratt
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There are plenty of existing dating sites that wouldn't have much of a problem adapting to the idea of a game app to play with potential matches, if they thought it was a winning idea.

I've seen other people gamble on the 'next big thing' online and lose, either because something that seemed novel suddenly becomes widely available for nothing, or because the technology can't support enough users to make it financially viable. I do have a feeling he'll go for Vana's plan because it is, as he said, a massive gamble.
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Old 17-12-2015, 02:50
allafix
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She has a vision of how the gaming and dating thing links up and starts with that concept to drive it forward. Existing dating apps probably won't see the value in redesigning their whole interface and method of operation simply to compete with an idea that might not even work.

Unlike last year I want to find out more about both ideas, so I'm looking forward to the final more than usual.
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Old 17-12-2015, 03:23
Alrightmate
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Quite simply, Joseph WAS pitching his exisiting business. LS would parttake in the success the company already enjoys.

Richard wasn't. He was pitching a new company; albeit completely similar to his old one; which he wouldn't give away.

There is a distinct difference there, although it wasn't made very clear in that mess of an edit. I thought the whole episode was pretty poor.
Maybe that was the difference. That Joseph possibly definitely wanted to create a partnership with AS, but Richard just wanted to get what he could out of AS, possibly more interested in getting a big cash injection and then parting ways with AS and doing his own thing later?
In other words trying to pull a fast one.
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Old 17-12-2015, 03:42
MinaH
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She has a vision of how the gaming and dating thing links up and starts with that concept to drive it forward. ... .
Everybody has a vision. It's just a question of what she brings to the table starting from a vision. During the interviews and during the meeting she never said anything concrete about what she had achieved in business.
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Old 17-12-2015, 08:40
sodafountain
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Maybe that was the difference. That Joseph possibly definitely wanted to create a partnership with AS, but Richard just wanted to get what he could out of AS, possibly more interested in getting a big cash injection and then parting ways with AS and doing his own thing later?
In other words trying to pull a fast one.
Notice how Richard wouldn't give up his other business while there was 3 of them, so a good chance LS would sack one of the other 2, but as soon as Joseph was told he was in the final, so now a 2 horse race, he suddenly said he's give up his shares on the other business, last ditch attempt to sway LS, to little to late i feel (had he done it at the first request, before Joseph got through, he may have had more chance).
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Old 17-12-2015, 08:42
mimik1uk
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Charleine's business relied on her reputation as a hairdresser being of value, which it isn't. It would take her years to establish herself as a top hairdresser and so start an academy and franchise her brand. It was pure fantasy. Vana has a unique idea, combining dating and gaming. It has credibility and potential but is extremely risky.
good post

vana's idea was her selling point whereas nothing charlene wanted to do was new and to be successful at it required a level of status in the field that she just doesn't have
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Old 17-12-2015, 09:27
lightdragon
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I think Richard's downfall was that his plan was going to create a conflict of interest, offering the pre-existing business even with his brother as a partner, so long as LAS got his 50% stake, would probably have got him into the final.

Charleine IMO was relying on the Dr Leah factor of building profile on the back of appearing on the show and becoming a recognisable face, while I can see why it would work for Leah, I'm not sure it would have the same potential for Charleine's hairdressing franchise.

Sorry but Vana's idea is god awful. Combining two great ideas does not equal a great idea, like bacon flavoured ice cream (okay somebody somewhere has probably invented this and they must be stopped).

TL;DR Is this the worst final five ideas we've ever had, usually there is one or two that you can see some potential in.
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Old 17-12-2015, 09:34
Venetian
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She has a vision of how the gaming and dating thing links up and starts with that concept to drive it forward. Existing dating apps probably won't see the value in redesigning their whole interface and method of operation simply to compete with an idea that might not even work.

Unlike last year I want to find out more about both ideas, so I'm looking forward to the final more than usual.
I am too. Personally I feel Joseph is onto a winner, he wants to set up more contracts with management letting agencies, who will have an unlimited stream of jobs to offer out. People who work for the agency just want to get on with letting properties, it is so much easier for them to just contact the plumber/electrician whomever, leaving the nitty gritty of making contact, getting a convenient time and gaining access to the property,this is time consuming for the agent (who is usually on a high commission) and freeing them up for actual selling.
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Old 17-12-2015, 12:42
brangdon
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No, it has to be a completely new business. The problem is Richard's brother may have grounds to sue if Richard and Sugar take the same business model and go it alone
I think a bigger problem is that Richard took so long to come clean. There was so much waffle, which he admitted was obfuscation, and then it turns out he wants to keep a 50% share in a competing business. Even if he devoted 100% of his time to Lord Sugar's, that's still a conflict of interest. When he offered to give up his brother's business entirely, it was too late. I don't think he had much credibility at that point.

Frankly I was surprised by what an easy ride the show gave him.
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Old 17-12-2015, 12:54
mimik1uk
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I think a bigger problem is that Richard took so long to come clean. There was so much waffle, which he admitted was obfuscation, and then it turns out he wants to keep a 50% share in a competing business. Even if he devoted 100% of his time to Lord Sugar's, that's still a conflict of interest. When he offered to give up his brother's business entirely, it was too late. I don't think he had much credibility at that point.

Frankly I was surprised by what an easy ride the show gave him.
what i struggled to get mt head around was why was he so reluctant to give up his share in a business that made £17,000 last year if the proposal he was putting forward was meant to be so lucrative

i think in the end it came down to trust, i dont think sugar was ever entirely comfortable with him and this ended up just being the last straw
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Old 17-12-2015, 13:24
Wallasey Saint
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Joseph 100% owns his business, Richard doesn't, & Richard was very coy on his intentions, after the bullshit he came out with, it was relieved that he wanted to keep his shares in the competing business, creating conflict of interest Lord Sugar demands you give him 100% by the end Lord Sugar felt he couldn't trust Richard.

Joseph's plan was far more straight forward easy for Lord Sugar to understand but, fell at the figures but Joseph was allowing the plan to be tweaked
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Old 17-12-2015, 13:27
Flora_McDonald
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what i struggled to get mt head around was why was he so reluctant to give up his share in a business that made £17,000 last year if the proposal he was putting forward was meant to be so lucrative

i think in the end it came down to trust, i don't think sugar was ever entirely comfortable with him and this ended up just being the last straw
I agree regarding the trust issue.

I think he wouldn't have wanted to let his brother and their employees down, plus there would have been an obligation to pay people's wages for a certain period. There would have also been his own financial status to consider, as he might lose a good salary and all sorts of expenses, such as a company car and travel/entertainment allowance.
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