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Old 17-12-2015, 11:14
Tallywacker
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Is it a foregone conclusion that Joseph will win? He has a credible business and Sugar likes sticking it to the big boys so will be keen to steal market share from British Gas, Home Team etc for commercial and domestic heating contracts.

Vana's business plan on the other hand... is it just me that doesn't get it? You literally 'play games' in order to eventually get to view a photo of somebody on a dating site?? Why hasn't Sugar dismissed this gameification nonsense? We live in a world of instant gratification. We want to look online for members of the opposite sex and make an instant decision. Who wants to play electronic scrabble for hours on end only to find out your opponent looks like a moose? As much as I've warmed to Vana her business plan sounds worse than Gazza's mobile disco.

They say online dating and online games are the two most lucrative dotcoms at the moment so merging them could create a synergy and create millions, but that's like saying Vodka and Whisky are the 2 best selling spirits and merging them would somehow be amazeballs when obviously it just wouldn't work.
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Old 17-12-2015, 11:25
CGG_12
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Is it a foregone conclusion that Joseph will win? He has a credible business and Sugar likes sticking it to the big boys so will be keen to steal market share from British Gas, Home Team etc for commercial and domestic heating contracts.

Vana's business plan on the other hand... is it just me that doesn't get it? You literally 'play games' in order to eventually get to view a photo of somebody on a dating site?? Why hasn't Sugar dismissed this gameification nonsense? We live in a world of instant gratification. We want to look online for members of the opposite sex and make an instant decision. Who wants to play electronic scrabble for hours on end only to find out your opponent looks like a moose? As much as I've warmed to Vana her business plan sounds worse than Gazza's mobile disco.

They say online dating and online games are the two most lucrative dotcoms at the moment so merging them could create a synergy and create millions, but that's like saying Vodka and Whisky are the 2 best selling spirits and merging them would somehow be amazeballs when obviously it just wouldn't work.
I expect to make it look more of a contest for dramatic purposes.

her plan though as you say is a massive risk. that said I don't think Joe was ever not winning this process anyway since week 6 regardless

But yeah, fully agree, as close to a foregone conclusion as you can get in a final
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Old 17-12-2015, 11:37
rosset
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I agree its a foregone conclusion but not for the reasons you state. Joseph's plan is already a very crowded business and I cant really see where there is room for him and what he provides.
Vana plan is excellent as I have written on my own thread. People do want to get married and stay married and that doesnt happen in an 'instant'. The best way is to 'know' the person before seeing them. That 'beauty' doesnt cloud the brain.
The question is only how to go about it and what she can bring to the table. We may see more in the next task. I am quite sure it will be copied immediately by one of the big dating sites, maybe even the many free ones.
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Old 17-12-2015, 14:22
slouchingthatch
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This time last year, many people thought Bianca was a shoo-in to win - only for her plan to be proven to be much poorer than it first appeared.

I find Joseph's plan distinctly unexciting. Safe, absolutely. But it's now basically just an expansion of his existing business - it's not even a new venture as such.

Vana's plan is hugely risky, it's a very competitive space (there are dozens if not hundreds of dating apps launching and dying every year) and it has a horrendous burn rate. But the potential rewards are enormous if it does work. What she needs to address is the fact she will clearly need a second round of funding from a venture capitalist to take the concept and launch it properly. It's an added complication but if Sugar is willing to be open to that route, it's a strong prospect.
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Old 17-12-2015, 14:28
Tallywacker
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Vana plan is excellent as I have written on my own thread. People do want to get married and stay married and that doesnt happen in an 'instant'. The best way is to 'know' the person before seeing them. That 'beauty' doesnt cloud the brain.
I agree people want to make meaningful relationships but playing a silly online game isn't going to teach you anything. And who finds people with a competitive streak attractive? Oh look, this bird just beat me at connect 4. I'm such a dumbass, she'll feel so superior to me before we even met. Much better to just see a picture of someone and then get to know them, not the other way round. None of us would date someone 'nice' who looked like the back end of a bus, and Vana knows that.
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Old 17-12-2015, 14:36
slouchingthatch
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I agree people want to make meaningful relationships but playing a silly online game isn't going to teach you anything. And who finds people with a competitive streak attractive? Oh look, this bird just beat me at connect 4. I'm such a dumbass, she'll feel so superior to me before we even met. Much better to just see a picture of someone and then get to know them, not the other way round. None of us would date someone 'nice' who looked like the back end of a bus, and Vana knows that.
The 'games' Vana is proposing to include in her app aren't 'game' games as such but more things like personality profiling.
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Old 17-12-2015, 14:39
Tallywacker
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She mentioned psychometric tests amongst other things. My mate has been through these to join the forces, it's not exactly a romantic matchmaking process. Oh and e-harmony already pedals this 'compatibility' line, same as most dating sites. Vana's bringing nothing new.
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Old 17-12-2015, 14:43
slouchingthatch
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She mentioned psychometric tests amongst other things. My mate has been through these to join the forces, it's not exactly a romantic matchmaking process. Oh and e-harmony already pedals this 'compatibility' line, same as most dating sites. Vana's bringing nothing new.
Yes, I've conducted training in psychometrics before, so I know what they do - there's definitely the possibility of using them to sift and identify alike types of people. Vana's claims are different to what currently exists in the market - this is demonstrated quite clearly in the final episode.
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Old 17-12-2015, 14:52
Tallywacker
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We're in the realm of if it was that obvious, any of the myriad other dating providers would have done it. Same as Biancas skin coloured tights last year. Clearly there's no money in it or it would have been done. I suppose those online bingo/games sites with chatrooms could lead to like minded people meeting, just without a formal 'dating' vibe about it.

Heating and plumbing is boring but trading on the negative 'what if' like BG have done could be a market Joseph could tap into with Sugars investment. Like Jo said, everyone needs a plumber!
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Old 17-12-2015, 15:47
Makson
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Lord Sugar has been won over by Joseph's charisma and overflowing sexuality like the rest of us.
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Old 17-12-2015, 16:01
Tallywacker
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Lord Sugar has been won over by Joseph's charisma and overflowing sexuality like the rest of us.
Valentino! I'm as straight as a die but agree he looks tonnes better without the hormonal teenager tashe he's been sporting until now.
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Old 17-12-2015, 17:38
lammtarra
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This time last year, many people thought Bianca was a shoo-in to win - only for her plan to be proven to be much poorer than it first appeared.

I find Joseph's plan distinctly unexciting. Safe, absolutely. But it's now basically just an expansion of his existing business - it's not even a new venture as such.

Vana's plan is hugely risky, it's a very competitive space (there are dozens if not hundreds of dating apps launching and dying every year) and it has a horrendous burn rate. But the potential rewards are enormous if it does work. What she needs to address is the fact she will clearly need a second round of funding from a venture capitalist to take the concept and launch it properly. It's an added complication but if Sugar is willing to be open to that route, it's a strong prospect.
It may be that Lord Sugar will be spending his time trying to quantify how risky Vana's app is -- which probably means asking Claude to run through her cash flow projections one more time. Both Claude and Mike feared Vana would run out of cash. We've seen in series 7, Susan failed because her moon-on-a-stick promises depended on so many assumptions falling her way; none were implausible by themselves but she needed all of them.

And on the other hand, how safe is Joseph's plan? Can Lord Sugar's property developer mates provide maintenance contracts in suitable locations for Joe's expansion?
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Old 17-12-2015, 17:57
slouchingthatch
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It may be that Lord Sugar will be spending his time trying to quantify how risky Vana's app is -- which probably means asking Claude to run through her cash flow projections one more time. Both Claude and Mike feared Vana would run out of cash. We've seen in series 7, Susan failed because her moon-on-a-stick promises depended on so many assumptions falling her way; none were implausible by themselves but she needed all of them.

And on the other hand, how safe is Joseph's plan? Can Lord Sugar's property developer mates provide maintenance contracts in suitable locations for Joe's expansion?
'Safe' is a relative term, of course. Joseph's plan is unquestionably safer than Vana's as there is at least some proven demand, it requires a slower financial burn and investment in some assets (e.g. vans, tools) which would have a resale value if the business didn't succeed. But then he's not projecting the potential for £7m profit in year 3 either.

To be honest, I don't think looking at Vana's financial projections again will help (although, of course, this is part of the due diligence process that goes on in the background for the finalists anyway). I know how the business model for this kind of thing works: as mentioned in the ep, at some point there is a 'hockey stick' effect where growth suddenly takes off exponentially - like an story going viral online. Either it will work or (more likely) it won't. No spreadsheet will tell you whether or not the plan will succeed - you either win big or lose big.

The situation facing Sugar is a little like that facing venture capitalists in Silicon Valley - you invest in 20 risky start-ups knowing 19 will fail but hoping that the 20th will be the one that makes you mega-bucks. But you have to be willing to take the risk (and the collateral losses) to reap the reward.
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Old 17-12-2015, 18:07
Galaxy266
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Sugar sees Joseph as a younger version of himself when he was that age. He likes him a lot!

I don't think he'd touch Vana's business with a barge-pole, quite honestly, and he more-or-less said this in his summing-up. He only let her enter the final because he and/or the production company wanted a boy and girl. He certainly did right to fire Charlene, the other girl left in the final five. I think she should have gone a long time ago. Her turning on the tears for the slightest reason has just got a bit too much.

I think Vana will put up a very good fight but, at the end of the day, it will be Joseph who gets the £250,000 investment.
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Old 17-12-2015, 19:16
Rutakateki
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As much as I've warmed to Vana her business plan sounds worse than Gazza's mobile disco.
lol!

I like the sound of his mobile disco, I reckon it'd have atmosphere.

Atmosphere by Russ Abbott.
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Old 17-12-2015, 21:40
Cats_Eyes
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Sugar sees Joseph as a younger version of himself when he was that age. He likes him a lot!

I don't think he'd touch Vana's business with a barge-pole, quite honestly, and he more-or-less said this in his summing-up. He only let her enter the final because he and/or the production company wanted a boy and girl. He certainly did right to fire Charlene, the other girl left in the final five. I think she should have gone a long time ago. Her turning on the tears for the slightest reason has just got a bit too much.

I think Vana will put up a very good fight but, at the end of the day, it will be Joseph who gets the £250,000 investment.
And that is the bottom line - which I personally think is a shame.

I like Vana a lot and in the great scheme of things to move a business forward I think she would be a better - but I doubt that she will win.
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Old 17-12-2015, 21:47
Cats_Eyes
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Is it a foregone conclusion that Joseph will win? He has a credible business and Sugar likes sticking it to the big boys so will be keen to steal market share from British Gas, Home Team etc for commercial and domestic heating contracts.

Vana's business plan on the other hand... is it just me that doesn't get it? You literally 'play games' in order to eventually get to view a photo of somebody on a dating site?? Why hasn't Sugar dismissed this gameification nonsense? We live in a world of instant gratification. We want to look online for members of the opposite sex and make an instant decision. Who wants to play electronic scrabble for hours on end only to find out your opponent looks like a moose? As much as I've warmed to Vana her business plan sounds worse than Gazza's mobile disco.

They say online dating and online games are the two most lucrative dotcoms at the moment so merging them could create a synergy and create millions, but that's like saying Vodka and Whisky are the 2 best selling spirits and merging them would somehow be amazeballs when obviously it just wouldn't work.
I doubt that they will lose much sleep over that.
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Old 18-12-2015, 07:47
Maxatoria
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The expansion into another area may be harder than he thinks, just because one of his clients says why can't you come and do some work for me in X location doesn't mean he'll be able to rent a building and a few vans a long with finding enough people with the right gas safe quals at the drop of a hat

I'd bet he might subbie out the work to local teams with him checking on their work etc and fix minor problems (is he actually gas safe registered himself?)

But i'm sure LS will have enough contacts to be able to provide him with chance to quote for plenty of jobs especially the bigger landlords who need 50 ancient boilers replacing in a single high rise flat etc.
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Old 18-12-2015, 08:54
slouchingthatch
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Sugar sees Joseph as a younger version of himself when he was that age. He likes him a lot!

I don't think he'd touch Vana's business with a barge-pole, quite honestly, and he more-or-less said this in his summing-up. He only let her enter the final because he and/or the production company wanted a boy and girl. He certainly did right to fire Charlene, the other girl left in the final five. I think she should have gone a long time ago. Her turning on the tears for the slightest reason has just got a bit too much.

I think Vana will put up a very good fight but, at the end of the day, it will be Joseph who gets the £250,000 investment.
I don't doubt that Sugar sees himself in Joseph. And while some kind of personal rapport is important in making an investment decision, I think a lot of people underestimate the fact that, ultimately, Sugar will make a business decision not an emotional one. If it's close between the two, I imagine he'll plump for Joseph, but if Vana's plan is better - and if Sugar is willing to take a risk - I can certainly see her winning.
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Old 18-12-2015, 09:05
slouchingthatch
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The expansion into another area may be harder than he thinks, just because one of his clients says why can't you come and do some work for me in X location doesn't mean he'll be able to rent a building and a few vans a long with finding enough people with the right gas safe quals at the drop of a hat

I'd bet he might subbie out the work to local teams with him checking on their work etc and fix minor problems (is he actually gas safe registered himself?)

But i'm sure LS will have enough contacts to be able to provide him with chance to quote for plenty of jobs especially the bigger landlords who need 50 ancient boilers replacing in a single high rise flat etc.
This is one of the issues I see causing Joseph problems. Sugar has previously expressed concerns (with both runner-up Tom Gearing and winner Leah Totton) about his name being associated with a brand where there is a danger of negative publicity damaging his reputation. Plumbers don't exactly have the best reputation in the world, do they? How will Joseph ensure quality control when his business expands beyond a point where he can oversee everything himself?

Not an insurmountable concern, by any means, but a significant one.
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