I didn't enjoy it either. It was far too manic and frenetic for my liking.
I liked Georgia's show dance best but none of them were very good or memorable really.

And I wish I had a quid for every time that quote is mentioned. It's an "entertainment" show? Okay then. Why bother with the judges at all if everyone's just going to ignore them and vote for their favourite?

It's a "entertainment" show? So why hasn't Jeremy Vine won? Or Ainsley? Or Carol. They weren't good dancers but were "entertaining".

My suggestion for next year is to scrap the viewer vote. The bottom two do the dance-off and that's that.

Oh, and it was said right at the start of the show that the judges scores should be used "for guidance" and if one couple score 40/40/39 then they should win the damned thing!!


http://champions-speakers.co.uk/musi...n-karen-hauer/

So just slightly better than your average "Butlins" dancer then.


As it the vitriol some people seem to have for certain professional dancers.


Yes. Please do. I like a good laugh.


I think the point was that they're all far more qualified than pretty-much everyone on this forum.

Not true . Denied by all parties .

The premise of this thread is that we would have the judges direct us how to vote, as if we are here to do what they say. Very strange. Len never slipped me a fiver to vote, how about you?

Point one - because it's an entertainment show based on dancing in which people are told to vote for their favourites. The Judges are there to provide some element of "professional" opinion and in theory to offer their "expertise" to an un-educated public.
The problem now is that the show's been going on so long the public knows what they're supposed to see in a dance and when they don't see it and the judges don't mention it, it sticks out like a sore thumb.

Point two - there's plenty ballroom, latin and other dance experts on these forums including teachers, dancers and those involved in both the entertainment world or journalism industry covering the dance world.

Come now, by combining the judge's vote with the viewer's vote the funny duffers are always going to court a dance-off sooner or later where the judges can give them the boot, do try to keep up.



Then the judges (by extension the Beeb) definitely control everything.
I don't know why the show even bothers saying the judges in the final are there for any kind of guidance. They should just say the judges are allowed to express an opinion but it is for the viewer to decide. If the judges want to guide me how to vote, they may as well do the voting themselves.

Yes indeed , but in the end even they differ hugely at times and end up falling out over their opinions . I must confess to finding it hilarious at times as they fight for dominance over a fleckerl or a heel lead . That alone has made me more determined to plough my own field (opinion wise) and ignore all the experts on here. Nothing personal , just that the deluge of differing opinions from them only confuses the issues .
I find myself almost always in agreement with craig . I like his simple honesty delivered without the waffle or drama . Len knows his ballroom inside out . Those two I'm fine with .Darcy is just filler fluff. Bruno can mostly be ok, but recently is faltering and needs to get back to basics .

Course they do because, as I've said many times, dance is subjective and emotive which is why people are told to vote for their favourite and not the "best".

Nah... It's actually quite simple Jay was this persona/dancer created in the minds of his supporters particularly after that jive. They bought into the show narrative of nervous shy Jay who came out and danced better than anyone in Strictly history. From that moment any criticism / marking by judges that was at odds with the narrative/mindset of his supporters had to be a fix ...... Genuine feedback about acting was dismissed as judges being biased idiots. You had scrambling around for ammunition to throw at any contestant that out scored him. Some of it very nasty. It came to a head in final when Jay just didn't live up to the hype that his supporters had created/bought into. Not only wasn't he the best ever dancer on Strictly he wasn't even the best on the night. Instead of just being happy he won as expected by vast majority of folks on here including supporters of other dancers they're thrashing around desperately attempting to hold onto narrative they bought into. Jay has to be who they believed him to be for all those weeks. He has to be this superb dancer streets ahead of anyone else in show. Anyone especially the judges who attempted to burst that bubble is wrong / biased or whatever the latest conspiracy is. Time to let go but it's difficult when your own belief system has been found wanting.

Weaker dancers on the night have won plenty of times. Folks voted for who they liked. I voted for Abbie knowing full well Natalie was the better dancer but I just couldn't buy into her partnership with Artem. Thing is though I never believed / had mindset that she was the superior dancer. I could understand why folks who voted for Natalie were peeved.

Absolute bollocks, as Bruno might say. For the majority anyway; I'm sure for the minority you may well be right but then that goes with every dancer in the contest whether it be Anita, Georgia, Helen, Katie, Kellie etc.

People embraced Jay and Aliona's dancing and partnership for what it was and voted accordingly. But trying to put them down and sneer at them is just as bad as what's being thrown at Kellie and Kevin (especially) at the moment which, I will add, leaves a sour taste in the mouth as well.

I think the majority of Jay and Aliona fans believe he was the best dancer in the series. Indeed, the judges average score actually agrees with them (he's tied with Kellie/Kevin after the final though even many non-JA fans state he was undermarked for the Jive, which would lift his average slightly higher than KK) so it's not just caught up in the mindset of the deluded or mad, no matter how you try to present it as so.

Of course people can think others were better; that is their right and to be respected. It's the calling out that you're right and Jay fans are wrong rather than accepting it as subjectivity which is galling (and, again, in fairness, works both ways).

I was saying....... 😉

Ah the old idea that Jay's fans support him because they are somehow deluded or in his thrall or any reason other than they see him as the best dancer comes out again.

I think the problem with this is that it seems at odds with the longstanding anti-Jay argument that due to his "extensive training" he's too good to be with all the novices. It seems through most of the show it was generally accepted he was the best technical dancer (the debate was over his facial expression) even last night the judges seemed to say he was the best on a technical level yet now there's an attempt from most of those same detractors to say he was never that good all along.

Of course it's somewhat easy to do given lasts nights scores, it's the best evidence anyone can give that he wasn't worthy...that is of course if you ignore his average being the best of the series. Besides it's not like made huge errors last night, it all came down stylistic choices most of which where not his.

If we're to take this newest argument that his popularity is all down to the Jive then there's a flaw with that; why didn't the jive get full marks? After all the judges reiterated last night it was one of the best dances on Strictly ever, if so then why did it not get a 40 and lesser dances have? The most charitable explanation is that it occurred too early in the series and the judges bar Bruno couldn't justify getting their ten paddles out that early - but surely a dance is worth what it's worth regardless, right?

Likewise why do the judges get more generous with those ten paddles in Blackpool unless of course you're unfortunate to go on first. Of course this is a level of manipulation a lot of the fans are aware of and (grudgingly) accept but it's more than enough to discount the judges input as the true version of events.

I can't remember which dance (I think it may have been Jay's first Paso) that the only criticism he could muster was his thumb was sticking up as some great sin yet gleefully told Georgia that he would overlook her mistake. Craig cares about technical skill until he doesn't. This kind of thing is standard with all the judges and again most fans accept this as part of the panto unless it impacts their favorite.

What we got last night though felt like a full blown Kellie love-in. I think it went to another level and made it very confusing for anyone other than Kellie to win and really highlights the shows narrative isn't to be trusted either.

No, my comment did absolutely nothing to back up your assertion.

Ah but it does. As does Farscape. Jay won as he was always going to do since week 3. Just be happy he won. What is unedifying is the need to do others down to justify Jay winning last night. He's been hit and miss throughout the competition. Final night was another miss where others out performed him. He was the most popular celebrity. He won as he was the most popular. The only folks that struggle with this concept are his fans in that they have to somehow justify their vote by concocting a conspiracy that he was hard done by judges comments/scoring.

You were saying complete bollocks yes with the implication that anyone who preferred Jay's dances in the final was somehow wrong because they didn't agree with the judges placing him in third position on the leader board.


Don't see where either of those posts were "doing anyone else down".

That's lazy. Perhaps you could say what exactly in my post that backs up your belief.

Also are you saying that no one is over or under marked in strictly ever? If you look at the history of the show and how some high scoring dances stack up to lower ones that's a ridiculous claim.

Also if he was that hit and miss then why did he have the best average all series? Does that mean every other contestant this year was more miss than him? That doesn't seem to support that he was never that good which in itself is quite the turnaround from the "he's the best technically but is a let in down in facial expressions" which was the standard throughout the series. So which is it?

He had an uneven trajectory at a high level. His early rounds' expertise won him high marks sooner than most. Similarly Helen had a really high average -- another up-and-down performer week on week who ended her time on the show with an unfortunately-timed minor dip.

The 'journey' contestants inevitably have a lower average.

Possibly. I'm probably talking through my hat

I agree. Some great posters, loads of great personalities and a plenty of humour all of which I appreciate.
But it's very difficult to "focus" on the posts I enjoy reading when there is so much vitriol elsewhere.
Whilst I agree that on a forum "freedom of speech" is the order of the day, I cannot believe the amount of hurtful and downright nasty comments that are interspersed in amongst the "gems" and genuine nuggets of information.
Just saying.

I have been reading about matter and anti-matter. Apparently if you bring them together they will annihilate each other in a shower of energy.

So this got me thinking - if we asked the DS moderators to merge this thread with the "Kellie was Robbed" thread - would the two threads annihilate each other?

It would be bad… Try to imagine all life as you know it stopping instantaneously and every molecule in your body exploding at the speed of light.

I agree with you - I don't dislike either Kevin or Kelly but i think they were over-marked and I thought just doing a charleston for a show dance was a bit of a cop out. Although I didn't think any of the showdances were particularly stellar - I do applaud all the pros for not doing the usual disco dancing with lifts bollocks that is usually what you get with a showdance - at least all the showdances were attempts to do something a bit different.

I think that in a sense Kellie was given a bit of an easier ride than the others - I do understand why Jay and Katie were given the quicksteps they hadn't quite managed to pull off the first time around and I think it actually helped Jay as the public could see how much he'd improved and how difficult the rountine was but Kelly had a much easier job improving a routine choreographed for her in first week.

To be honest I think that everyone knew Kellie wasn't going to win so the judges wanted to make the experience a good one for her, wrist slap the public for not appreciating her enough and that their showdance like Katie and Anton's was more 'lets have fun with this' rather than a serious attempt to impress the people at home. The final was always going to be either Jay's or Georgia's - I thought Georgia was a bit more impressive on the night but I always wanted Jay to win and it's not because he's a blank canvas it's because he is a beautiful dancer - he is incredibly graceful and yet can still deliver a sharp rountine like that jive and that paso - perhaps Ailona went for the paso to remind people that the jive wasn't the only thing he could pull off.

I agree with that Gleb did not make the best move to do that Salsa in the semis and especially to do it again in the dance-off and I do think Kellie may have been overmarked to get her into the final.

Pssssst! It wasn't a Charleston. It was a Lindy Hop.

But what if we believe truly, overall, that he was strongest dancer throughout? That we did enjoy his Quickstep and Paso Doble on Saturday (okay, I had real issues with the showdance on first viewing!)? Is this is a conspiracy? Should we all be flocking to Kellie, Georgia, Katie etc. and extolling their virtues whilst saying 'yeah Jay was crap but so be it'? I don't get it.

From a personal point of view the final could have probably done with Anita there rather than Katie and part of me wonders whether, based on the response to Jay's performances on the night, she would have won. But that doesn't take away from the sterling work talent and entertainment put in by the other finalists and the rest of the cast throughout the series.

I don't think there was any manipulation. I think the judges were scoring on just the dances in the final where as (I presume) most of the voters were voting on their favourites from the series as a whole.
Personally although I have enjoyed some of Kelly and Kevins dances their only stand out/memorable one was their AS. Other than that it is down to personal taste. Listening to Kevin on ITT it was obvious he choreographed very much to suit Kellies personality and requests.
Just to clarify I didn't vote for either Jay or Kellie as my personal favourite was Georgia and Giovanni but I was not surprised or disappointed that they didn't win. Any of the three finalists would have been deserving winners.

What?

No conspiracy. Kellie outranked the competition and deserves her scores. The fact that jay won doesn't change that. Get over it, Kellie was better on the night.