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Old 10-08-2016, 02:07
M60
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CATV uses the VHF/UHF bands so it will have such a tuner. Interesting that this is happening on, I assume, ATSC services though. Of course, the reason could be something completely different such as a poor signal.

Are you able to access the parameters of the signal such as FEC?
The UHF "front end" on those 2009 sets is in a different place to where the Satellite (L Band) front end is which is the right hand side of the set looking face on at the rear which too I found odd. The board used in the UK for DSAT must be interchangeable for a VHF/UHF DCAB front end PCB with the F Type on.

Nowt wrong with C/N level as I've borrowed a meter and measured it, a Samsung TV with similar front-end in the room next door is fine. Both sets show 100% signal quality too.
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Old 10-08-2016, 07:40
zandar
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Indeed, but they all have a contract with the dealer who supplied them the set, and that is the person to whom they should direct their complaints (with the help of trading standards if necessary).
Most will have had this ‘faulty’Panasonic equipment for more than 5 years so can’t very well go back to the dealer. Many wish to keep the Panasonic PVR’s as they also contain DVD player- recorders and some even have blu-ray. (Owners can shift stuff they want to keep off the hard drive onto blank DVD’s - though not in HD quality).

By having the DVD built into the same box as a twin-tuner hard drive Freesat recorder, it means that users do not have a separate box for DVD & thus cut down on clutter and one less remote control. It is for such reasons that people paid so much for these machines - in my case nearly £400 for the non blu-ray version. (I purchased mine when analogue got shut down and my old VHS would no longer work. At the time, this was the only box that appeared ‘future proof’ by offering HD recording. I live in the second area to get analogue switched off).

So, been induced to pay a lot of money in order to retain recording capability (at analogue switch off) and now find that ITV decide to use a type of transmission that the Panasonic box fails to work on correctly.
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Old 11-08-2016, 09:39
Winston_1
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Most will have had this ‘faulty’Panasonic equipment for more than 5 years so can’t very well go back to the dealer.
The Sale of Goods Act or its replacement is good for six years in England and Wales so they most definitely can go back to the dealer.
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Old 11-08-2016, 10:30
Nigel Goodwin
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The Sale of Goods Act or its replacement is good for six years in England and Wales so they most definitely can go back to the dealer.
Where they have to prove it's a 'manufacturing defect' - which could be tricky, as the sets were perfectly fine until ITV changed the transmission standard.
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Old 11-08-2016, 10:48
moox
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Where they have to prove it's a 'manufacturing defect' - which could be tricky, as the sets were perfectly fine until ITV changed the transmission standard.
It doesn't appear to properly comply with DVB standards though - and IIRC the user guide states that it should support 3/4 FEC.

If it doesn't work with a major broadcaster's transmissions, despite that broadcaster using a configuration that the user guide explicitly states that it supports, there is a problem.

Oh, and the fact that it works on everything else except certain Panasonic devices.
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Old 11-08-2016, 11:20
rscott
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The Sale of Goods Act or its replacement is good for six years in England and Wales so they most definitely can go back to the dealer.
Not true. It's good for UP TO six years. The replacement law wouldn't apply in this case either - that only applies to transactions after it came into force.
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Old 11-08-2016, 20:45
M60
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It doesn't appear to properly comply with DVB standards though - and IIRC the user guide states that it should support 3/4 FEC.

If it doesn't work with a major broadcaster's transmissions, despite that broadcaster using a configuration that the user guide explicitly states that it supports, there is a problem.

Oh, and the fact that it works on everything else except certain Panasonic devices.
I pushed and pushed Panasonic over all of this despite it clearly stating it in their service manual for the affected models. I could have carried on and if taking it legal may or may not have got somewhere but it's a timely process for which I just don't have the time or inclination. In the end I decided to sell the sets I had, one to a bloke only interested in DTT use, another to a mate wanting to use it with Sky, so both not affected by this issue. I've since bought new 4K models which are a much better advancement both in PQ and Freesat implementation with no bugs or other software problems.

I'm convinced it's this reason Freesat and ITV have not yet done an LCN swap where an HD region matches it's SD one. I'm also convinced that once the BBC launch more HD regions for BBC One and Two they'll go down the same 3/4 FEC route and at this point ITV do an LCN swap. In ITV's view the problem is then shared with the BBC and the beeb will likely get the most stick for it from those left with these early Freesat TV's.
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Old 12-08-2016, 00:15
Winston_1
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Not true. It's good for UP TO six years. The replacement law wouldn't apply in this case either - that only applies to transactions after it came into force.
I'm sorry you were misled. Let me explain.

The Sale of Goods Act, or its replacement, is good for five years and 364 days in England and Wales so they most definitely can go back to the dealer.

I would not expect a replacement. I would expect a repair or compensation.
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Old 12-08-2016, 05:51
M60
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They would have to compensate or replace as the fault is hardware, not firmware, related. TV's bought n 2008 or 2009 are now well out of the 6yr window but anyone who purchased in 2010 would have to take it up with the dealer, not Panasonic. The dealer will no doubt try passing the book to Panasonic and the yo-yo game then commences. If the dealer wipes their hands of you it's then up to you to take legal action which is the time consuming part and requires you to pay upfront legal costs. Best of luck to you all and do let us know if you have any success.
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Old 12-08-2016, 08:41
Nigel Goodwin
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They would have to compensate or replace as the fault is hardware, not firmware, related.
What makes you think that?, from the description of the problem it sounds MUCH more likely to be a firmware problem.

Presumably Panasonic don't want to spent the huge sums involved in re-assembling a team to rewrite the software?.
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Old 12-08-2016, 08:54
moox
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What makes you think that?, from the description of the problem it sounds MUCH more likely to be a firmware problem.

Presumably Panasonic don't want to spent the huge sums involved in re-assembling a team to rewrite the software?.
If that were the case you'd think that Panasonic would spend barely anything on giving the affected users a free Freesat box (even if it has to be a Humax) - less money and effort than fixing the issue, but a compromise that restores full functionality and maintains goodwill (perhaps then those people will go on and buy a Panasonic 4K set later on)
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Old 12-08-2016, 10:40
M60
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What makes you think that?, from the description of the problem it sounds MUCH more likely to be a firmware problem.

Presumably Panasonic don't want to spent the huge sums involved in re-assembling a team to rewrite the software?.
Because I've access to the service manual and neccesary testgear to look at the QPSK/8PSK constellation at the IF demodulation stages to decipher that the issue lies in the Sony manufactured DVB Decoder uProcesser IC found on the main PCB. Funny that it also affected Sony sets too... that's because they too use the same IC in their early Freesat enabled sets too. If we're fixable in terms of firmware then this would be much easier, and cheaper, for Panasonic to resolve.
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Old 12-08-2016, 13:28
Nigel Goodwin
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Because I've access to the service manual and neccesary testgear to look at the QPSK/8PSK constellation at the IF demodulation stages to decipher that the issue lies in the Sony manufactured DVB Decoder uProcesser IC found on the main PCB.
Having the manual doesn't really help much, it could still just as easily be a software issue with the IC not been configured correctly?.

Assuming it IS a hardware issue?, you've got more chance as it's then much easier to prove it's a 'manufacturing defect'.


Funny that it also affected Sony sets too... that's because they too use the same IC in their early Freesat enabled sets too.
I've never heard any suggestion that the Sony Freesat sets have any such issues?, either from customers, Sony Service, the service trade, or any threads on these forums.
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Old 12-08-2016, 13:58
grahamlthompson
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I've never heard any suggestion that the Sony Freesat sets have any such issues?, either from customers, Sony Service, the service trade, or any threads on these forums.
You haven't looked very well. One Google search and visiting one site.

Andy S Says:
January 23rd, 2016 at 2:42 pm
I have a Sony TV KDL 46Z5800 from 2009 and having the same issues with ITV HD as mentioned above. Checked the Sony firmware update web site & nothing listed for a fix. It’s not just a Panasonic issue. I get all the other HD channels with high signal quality and strength.

Quote

Silversurfer263 Says:
January 23rd, 2016 at 4:02 pm
I have a Sony KDL40Z5800 purchased April 2010 also having the same issues so it is not just a Panasonic problem. I live in the Colchester area and if television is taken back to manufacturers default setting and a Sheffield post code is entered all is fine apart from receiving northern program’s. Are other users live in this area where I live?
Done everything to get rid of the problem but what has just clicked is the problem started beginning of December 2016 exactly when the frequencies changed

Quote

Silversurfer263 Says:
January 23rd, 2016 at 4:06 pm
I have a Sony KDL40Z5800 purchased April 2010 also having the same issues so it is not just a Panasonic problem. I live in the Colchester area and if television is taken back to manufacturers default setting and a Sheffield post code is entered all is fine apart from receiving northern program’s. Are other users in this area where I live having problems.?
Done everything to get rid of the problem but what has just clicked is the problem started beginning of December 2015 exactly when the frequencies changed
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Old 13-08-2016, 13:14
Mike_P
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Theres a posting two days old on the joinfeesat forum of the problem being resolved on a DMR BS750 by fitting variable attenuators.
http://www.joinfreesat.co.uk/panason...-tvs-and-pvrs/
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Old 13-08-2016, 16:48
zandar
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Theres a posting two days old on the joinfeesat forum of the problem being resolved on a DMR BS750 by fitting variable attenuators.
http://www.joinfreesat.co.uk/panason...-tvs-and-pvrs/
I purchased 2 Konig variable attenuators and fitted them to the inputs on my Panasonic PVR. I then tried them at every setting possible over a 2 week period but alas, they did not solve the problem and I removed them.

The problem seems to be worse when the sky is clear. Could it be that the signal for ITV HD is too strong for this type of tuner? Would it be possible for ITV to tweak the strength down a bit. Could it be that the spot beams - which are more concentrated on the UK - are overloading the tuner causing it to freeze the picture?
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Old 13-08-2016, 18:47
grahamlthompson
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I purchased 2 Konig variable attenuators and fitted them to the inputs on my Panasonic PVR. I then tried them at every setting possible over a 2 week period but alas, they did not solve the problem and I removed them.

The problem seems to be worse when the sky is clear. Could it be that the signal for ITV HD is too strong for this type of tuner? Would it be possible for ITV to tweak the strength down a bit. Could it be that the spot beams - which are more concentrated on the UK - are overloading the tuner causing it to freeze the picture?
If that was the case you would have the same problem with the BBC HD and Channel 4//5 HD channels. I would imagine it's down to the fec used used by ITV to increase the transponder capacity and a issue with the hardware/software for this particular forward error correction. It is the enhanced signal level in the UK from the new UK spot beams that made the fec now used by all ITV/STV and UTV HD channels possible in the first place.
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Old 14-08-2016, 11:43
Winston_1
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I purchased 2 Konig variable attenuators and fitted them to the inputs on my Panasonic PVR. I then tried them at every setting possible over a 2 week period but alas, they did not solve the problem and I removed them.

The problem seems to be worse when the sky is clear. Could it be that the signal for ITV HD is too strong for this type of tuner? Would it be possible for ITV to tweak the strength down a bit. Could it be that the spot beams - which are more concentrated on the UK - are overloading the tuner causing it to freeze the picture?
Why should ITV have to reduce power because manufacturers don't make their equipment to specifications? Anyway if that was the problem attenuators would fix it.

I've said so many times the fault is with Panasonic. Take it up with your retailer. Get help fron the CAB and trading standards. Why are so many letting Panasonic get away with this? Why are people still recommending Panasonic equipment? That company has bad form. MPEG 4 sets that wouldn't work in Ireland, split nit problems to mention two.
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Old 14-08-2016, 14:20
chrisjr
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I purchased 2 Konig variable attenuators and fitted them to the inputs on my Panasonic PVR. I then tried them at every setting possible over a 2 week period but alas, they did not solve the problem and I removed them.

The problem seems to be worse when the sky is clear. Could it be that the signal for ITV HD is too strong for this type of tuner? Would it be possible for ITV to tweak the strength down a bit. Could it be that the spot beams - which are more concentrated on the UK - are overloading the tuner causing it to freeze the picture?
ITV turning down the power would have exactly the same effect as your attenuators. Always assuming you had them connected correctly and they were working OK of course

Assuming the attenuators were doing their job then if they have no effect then ITV tweaking the power level would have no effect either.

In any case the signal strength on ITV HD is likely to be exactly the same as many other channels on the same satellite. So if signal strength were an issue it would affect more than just ITV HD. And it would also likely affect more makes of TV as well.
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Old 14-08-2016, 15:00
zandar
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Many thanks guys for your comments. I guess that it is not caused by ‘overloading’ but is a FEC issue. (When I fitted the attenuators, I did have on screen the bars to show signal strength so am confident that they were working on both inputs).
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Old 16-08-2016, 11:54
Winston_1
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Many thanks guys for your comments. I guess that it is not caused by ‘overloading’ but is a FEC issue. (When I fitted the attenuators, I did have on screen the bars to show signal strength so am confident that they were working on both inputs).
NO, it is NOT an FEC issue. It a manufacturer designing equipment not to DVB-T specifications.

As I keep saying take it up with the dealer you bought it from.
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Old 16-08-2016, 18:29
grahamlthompson
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NO, it is NOT an FEC issue. It a manufacturer designing equipment not to DVB-T specifications.

As I keep saying take it up with the dealer you bought it from.
DVB-S2 actually.
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Old 16-08-2016, 21:40
Winston_1
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Indeed.
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Old 14-10-2016, 12:46
Robin_Matthews
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I have a Panasonic TX-P42V10B bought from John Lewis almost 6 years ago. It displays the same picture break up problem with freesat ITV channel 111 and previously channel 119. My friend bought an identical set at the same time and he has no problems with freesat ITV?
One strange thing is that when it is tuned to ITV 111 showing all the signs of picture breakup if I take out the LNB feed, wait for the no signal plus a few seconds then plug it back in, the picture is perfect for the whole time it is left on 111. Change channel, go back to 111 and the picture break up is back?
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Old 15-10-2016, 11:24
kerry
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On a similar but different issue does anyone having tuning difficulties with Al Jazeera HD on their Panasonic TV. On frequency 11611H, I can pick up DAYSTAR HD but the other two channels from the same transponder - Al Jazeera HD & TV Record HD - are coming thru' with audio only + on-screen banner saying 'No Video'. Strange one of three channels from the same transponder is fine but the other two have video problems. I have been in touch with Al Jazeera & they say that they are unaware of any reception problems on D-SAT & are suggesting I must have problems my TV'S D-SAT tuner. Is this another tuning glitch for older Panasonic TV's along with the ITV issues?
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