Originally Posted by Kitty_Martinez:
“One with which I concur. I don't think Craig is big on subtlety.”
“One with which I concur. I don't think Craig is big on subtlety.”
Craig prefers dances you can see in the back row of the next county.
Why was Craig determined not to give that Paso a 10?
3 of 6
Originally Posted by Aurora13:
“Why can't Jay fans just accept that CRH didn't think Jay was the best dancer. Jay won as he was the most popular like every other winner. Some have been the best dancer some haven't. It matters not one jot in a popularity contest.”
“Why can't Jay fans just accept that CRH didn't think Jay was the best dancer. Jay won as he was the most popular like every other winner. Some have been the best dancer some haven't. It matters not one jot in a popularity contest.”
Because I, for one, just don't agree. For some, it's as if CRH says it, so it must be true, and yet it just... isn't.
The marks seem overegged for Kellie, the playing field, not level, the idea that her scores for the dances make her the 'best' seem just wrong to me.
DVO was assuredly the better dancer, but Louis won.
Natalie was the better dancer, but Abbey won.
Rachel was the better dancer, but Tom won.
Ricky was the better dancer, but Chris won.
For me, and for many, this is just NOT true of Jay and Kellie/Georgia.
It's much, much closer, and can be argued any way. I personally think Jay is the best, something oddly special about his dancing, then Georgia, and then hardworking, correct, energetic Kellie. And that's perfectly valid.
I don't have to talk about PERSONALITY. Jay won on his dancing, at least AS WELL as being liked.
Originally Posted by aggs:
“Craig prefers dances you can see in the back row of the next county.”
“Craig prefers dances you can see in the back row of the next county.”
Altogether now - oom pah pah oom pah pah that's all Craig knows.
Originally Posted by tabithakitten:
“The jive was though...
*opens can. flicks worms all over the place.*”
“The jive was though...
*opens can. flicks worms all over the place.*”
We've all seen what happens when the 10s come out in week 3/4 before though. "Too early", "nowhere to go", "no more ringahs, they're too good from the start". I don't blame them for not going the whole hog right off the bat, because for the most part the public don't like it, and before couples have always played ball with the show enough to do the routine again in the final to correct things. I've always argued that a dance should get the score it deserves whatever week it happens in, but as producers I can see why they'd guard against it.
Originally Posted by LaughingSock:
“Because Craig is acting like we just voted Chris Hollins to win all over again. This is Jay we're talking about. He may not have thrown out enough jazz hands to please Craig, but for Craig to practically act like we'd just handed the glitterball to Ann bloody Widdecombe is a bit insulting to the winner.”
“Because Craig is acting like we just voted Chris Hollins to win all over again. This is Jay we're talking about. He may not have thrown out enough jazz hands to please Craig, but for Craig to practically act like we'd just handed the glitterball to Ann bloody Widdecombe is a bit insulting to the winner.”
Since when did Craig give Widdy 9s? He was a bit sulky on the red button (although he still said that it was a great outcome and Jay did as well as the rest of them did) but this is getting ridiculous...
Originally Posted by LaughingSock:
“Because Craig is acting like we just voted Chris Hollins to win all over again. This is Jay we're talking about. He may not have thrown out enough jazz hands to please Craig, but for Craig to practically act like we'd just handed the glitterball to Ann bloody Widdecombe is a bit insulting to the winner.”
“Because Craig is acting like we just voted Chris Hollins to win all over again. This is Jay we're talking about. He may not have thrown out enough jazz hands to please Craig, but for Craig to practically act like we'd just handed the glitterball to Ann bloody Widdecombe is a bit insulting to the winner.”
When did Craig say anything of the sort? He said Jay is a good dancer, he just wasn't the best on the night.
Other people agree too.
I know everyone put a lot of stock into what Matthew Bourne said about Jay's rhumba, but on Saturday he was saying how Kellie was storming the final...
http://twitter.com/Mattbourne1/statu...99483852156928
http://twitter.com/Mattbourne1/statu...28870777585665
https://twitter.com/Mattbourne1/stat...38687185367040
For me the paso wasn't quite a 40 dance, I know Jay never got a ten from Craig, it is what it is, I am sure he could have done had some dances been cleaner (charleston) or had he redone the jive. He won anyway and there have been a number of winners without a 40 dance Kara and Alesha (who also never got a ten from Craig).
Originally Posted by Rhumbatugger:
“Because I, for one, just don't agree. For some, it's as if CRH says it, so it must be true, and yet it just... isn't.
The marks seem overegged for Kellie, the playing field, not level, the idea that her scores for the dances make her the 'best' seem just wrong to me.
DVO was assuredly the better dancer, but Louis won.
Natalie was the better dancer, but Abbey won.
Rachel was the better dancer, but Tom won.
Ricky was the better dancer, but Chris won.
For me, and for many, this is just NOT true of Jay and Kellie/Georgia.
It's much, much closer, and can be argued any way. I personally think Jay is the best, something oddly special about his dancing, then Georgia, and then hardworking, correct, energetic Kellie. And that's perfectly valid.
I don't have to talk about PERSONALITY. Jay won on his dancing, at least AS WELL as being liked.”
“Because I, for one, just don't agree. For some, it's as if CRH says it, so it must be true, and yet it just... isn't.
The marks seem overegged for Kellie, the playing field, not level, the idea that her scores for the dances make her the 'best' seem just wrong to me.
DVO was assuredly the better dancer, but Louis won.
Natalie was the better dancer, but Abbey won.
Rachel was the better dancer, but Tom won.
Ricky was the better dancer, but Chris won.
For me, and for many, this is just NOT true of Jay and Kellie/Georgia.
It's much, much closer, and can be argued any way. I personally think Jay is the best, something oddly special about his dancing, then Georgia, and then hardworking, correct, energetic Kellie. And that's perfectly valid.
I don't have to talk about PERSONALITY. Jay won on his dancing, at least AS WELL as being liked.”
It wasn't just the judges who believed Kellie to be better.
There are those who are in dance who believe it and as I just said, Matthew Bourne did too, he said they nailed the final and was delivering.
People are seeing at some conspiracy, when the fact is Kellie and then Georgia danced amazingly well and, yes, better then Jay. It's no big agenda against him by the judges and production, it's just how it was.
Originally Posted by amelia_lee:
“It wasn't just the judges who believed Kellie to be better.
There are those who are in dance who believe it and as I just said, Matthew Bourne did too, he said they nailed the final and was delivering.
People are seeing at some conspiracy, when the fact is Kellie and then Georgia danced amazingly well and, yes, better then Jay. It's no big agenda against him by the judges and production, it's just how it was.”
“It wasn't just the judges who believed Kellie to be better.
There are those who are in dance who believe it and as I just said, Matthew Bourne did too, he said they nailed the final and was delivering.
People are seeing at some conspiracy, when the fact is Kellie and then Georgia danced amazingly well and, yes, better then Jay. It's no big agenda against him by the judges and production, it's just how it was.”
No it isn't. It's not obvious at all.
Kellie's Tango was an odd, and simple week ONE dance. Her Star Was Charleston again was well danced, but again, rather simple and not really all that, especially in comparison with Georgia's which was much better and more difficult, even with the timing issues. They did well, but tens? That's just hugely debateable, not 'how it is' at all.
Georgia's Rhumba wasn't great either, and the showdances were all danced pretty well, but are a matter of taste.
That's just how it is.
Originally Posted by Rhumbatugger:
“No it isn't. It's not obvious at all.
Kellie's Tango was an odd, and simple week ONE dance. Her Star Was Charleston again was well danced, but again, rather simple and not really all that, especially in comparison with Georgia's which was much better and more difficult, even with the timing issues. They did well, but tens? That's just hugely debateable, not 'how it is' at all.
Georgia's Rhumba wasn't great either, and the showdances were all danced pretty well, but are a matter of taste.
That's just how it is.”
“No it isn't. It's not obvious at all.
Kellie's Tango was an odd, and simple week ONE dance. Her Star Was Charleston again was well danced, but again, rather simple and not really all that, especially in comparison with Georgia's which was much better and more difficult, even with the timing issues. They did well, but tens? That's just hugely debateable, not 'how it is' at all.
Georgia's Rhumba wasn't great either, and the showdances were all danced pretty well, but are a matter of taste.
That's just how it is.”
Exactly.
The only thing to blow me away was Jay's Paso. Even as a big fan of his I was underwhelmed by his show dance although on subsequent viewings I can admire it for it's tenderness and finesse - just wasn't what I anticipated.
Originally Posted by Ellie_:
“I didn't think it was a "10" either. A good dance but he didn't really look believable in a way. His arms were a bit soft and lacking the resistance latin dancers should have. That same feature was a boon to his waltz when out of hold though. You could really see his contemporary experience coming through. I didn't really begrudge the smile though!
It was still a great dance (and paso is hard!) so i can see why people liked it but imo as deserving as kellies tango for a ten (ie it didn't deserve it despite being a good dance.)”
“I didn't think it was a "10" either. A good dance but he didn't really look believable in a way. His arms were a bit soft and lacking the resistance latin dancers should have. That same feature was a boon to his waltz when out of hold though. You could really see his contemporary experience coming through. I didn't really begrudge the smile though!
It was still a great dance (and paso is hard!) so i can see why people liked it but imo as deserving as kellies tango for a ten (ie it didn't deserve it despite being a good dance.)”
No that's not the reason..........but it should have been the reason why we question the others giving tens.
And,just for the record as a non-Jay-fan ,I thought Jay's showdance was undermarked and Kel 'n Kev's Tango's "40" came as a shock.
Didn't even think it was dance of its round let alone dance of the night, Georgia's Charleston was much better.
And I say that as someone who liked Jay's paso.
And I say that as someone who liked Jay's paso.
It's more the fact that he saved his first ten for a Tango that had clear errors (completely the wrong hold for a Tango) yet begrudged giving Jay one for his Paso, which did not have the clear errors Kellie's Tango did.
Originally Posted by Penny Crayon:
“Craig consistently marked Jay down for lack of expression. Personally I found that a bit lame TBH - it was as if he begrudged giving him higher marks but that's Craig for you.
I think Jay and Aliona just weren't raucous and bawdy enough for Craig - he was unable to appreciate the skill and subtlety.
Just my opinion.”
“Craig consistently marked Jay down for lack of expression. Personally I found that a bit lame TBH - it was as if he begrudged giving him higher marks but that's Craig for you.
I think Jay and Aliona just weren't raucous and bawdy enough for Craig - he was unable to appreciate the skill and subtlety.
Just my opinion.”
Completely agreed. I doubt Jay would ever have got a 10 off Craig without resorting to full-on jazz hands and grinning inanely.
For me its not so much annoyance that Jay didn't get a 40, but that Kellie did with a fairly uninspiring week 1 routine. But hey, the public saw through it which is the main thing.
Originally Posted by Rhumbatugger:
“Because I, for one, just don't agree. For some, it's as if CRH says it, so it must be true, and yet it just... isn't.
The marks seem overegged for Kellie, the playing field, not level, the idea that her scores for the dances make her the 'best' seem just wrong to me.
For me, and for many, this is just NOT true of Jay and Kellie/Georgia.
It's much, much closer, and can be argued any way. I personally think Jay is the best, something oddly special about his dancing, then Georgia, and then hardworking, correct, energetic Kellie. And that's perfectly valid.
I don't have to talk about PERSONALITY. Jay won on his dancing, at least AS WELL as being liked.”
“Because I, for one, just don't agree. For some, it's as if CRH says it, so it must be true, and yet it just... isn't.
The marks seem overegged for Kellie, the playing field, not level, the idea that her scores for the dances make her the 'best' seem just wrong to me.
For me, and for many, this is just NOT true of Jay and Kellie/Georgia.
It's much, much closer, and can be argued any way. I personally think Jay is the best, something oddly special about his dancing, then Georgia, and then hardworking, correct, energetic Kellie. And that's perfectly valid.
I don't have to talk about PERSONALITY. Jay won on his dancing, at least AS WELL as being liked.”
I agree with all of this so much... the way Craig spoke about Jay on the red button 'reaction' show was like the public had voted for a vastly inferior dancer because they liked him. Most people seem to have warmed to Jay primarily because of his dancing, and anything else was just a bonus. Sure he had some fans of The Wanted on board who had probably decided to vote for him as soon as he was announced to do the show, but the same could be said of people who follow the careers of just about anyone who's ever done SCD.
I just think less is more sometimes, Craig could have simply said "well done Jay, you won the hearts of the viewers" - instead he had to add the bit about the best dancer often not winning which was irrelevant. It would have been equally irrelevant had Georgia or Kellie won IMO, as all three of them are superb.
I thought Jay's paso was overmarked by 3 of the judges. He just seemed to be going through the motions - much like that so-called Showdance.
However, Jay ending up bottom of the judges leaderboard probably ensured him a win more than if he had been at the top. I'm sure some would have given all their votes for him because he was bottom.
However, Jay ending up bottom of the judges leaderboard probably ensured him a win more than if he had been at the top. I'm sure some would have given all their votes for him because he was bottom.
Originally Posted by Rhumbatugger:
“No it isn't. It's not obvious at all.
Kellie's Tango was an odd, and simple week ONE dance. Her Star Was Charleston again was well danced, but again, rather simple and not really all that, especially in comparison with Georgia's which was much better and more difficult, even with the timing issues. They did well, but tens? That's just hugely debateable, not 'how it is' at all.
Georgia's Rhumba wasn't great either, and the showdances were all danced pretty well, but are a matter of taste.
That's just how it is.”
“No it isn't. It's not obvious at all.
Kellie's Tango was an odd, and simple week ONE dance. Her Star Was Charleston again was well danced, but again, rather simple and not really all that, especially in comparison with Georgia's which was much better and more difficult, even with the timing issues. They did well, but tens? That's just hugely debateable, not 'how it is' at all.
Georgia's Rhumba wasn't great either, and the showdances were all danced pretty well, but are a matter of taste.
That's just how it is.”
Exactly.
So what if a few people thought Kellie danced better there are just as many others who thought Jay danced just as well. I thought his paso deserved 40 but no way did Kellie's tango deserve 40. His showdance wasn't a typical showdance but he danced it beautifully.
Originally Posted by kaycee:
“I thought Jay's paso was overmarked by 3 of the judges. He just seemed to be going through the motions - much like that so-called Showdance.
However, Jay ending up bottom of the judges leaderboard probably ensured him a win more than if he had been at the top. I'm sure some would have given all their votes for him because he was bottom.”
“I thought Jay's paso was overmarked by 3 of the judges. He just seemed to be going through the motions - much like that so-called Showdance.
However, Jay ending up bottom of the judges leaderboard probably ensured him a win more than if he had been at the top. I'm sure some would have given all their votes for him because he was bottom.”
It was undermarked by one judge. Especially since Kellie got four tens for a tango which wasn't great.
Originally Posted by amelia_lee:
“It wasn't just the judges who believed Kellie to be better.
There are those who are in dance who believe it and as I just said, Matthew Bourne did too, he said they nailed the final and was delivering.
People are seeing at some conspiracy, when the fact is Kellie and then Georgia danced amazingly well and, yes, better then Jay. It's no big agenda against him by the judges and production, it's just how it was.”
“It wasn't just the judges who believed Kellie to be better.
There are those who are in dance who believe it and as I just said, Matthew Bourne did too, he said they nailed the final and was delivering.
People are seeing at some conspiracy, when the fact is Kellie and then Georgia danced amazingly well and, yes, better then Jay. It's no big agenda against him by the judges and production, it's just how it was.”
If there had been some reference to "on the night" the best dancer doesn't always win, that would have been fine.
The fact is that prior to the final, the judges' marks had Jay ahead. Leaving aside final scores, the judges, over the course of twelve weeks, put Jay first. Even with slightly dubious final scoring, Jay is still level with Kellie (or ahead if we include the quickstepathon
) and higher than Georgia.And yet Craig seems to be begrudging him the win as an inferior dancer. Well that's not what your colleagues thought over the course of an entire series Revel Horwood.
Originally Posted by la profesora:
“. My only objection to Craig's marks/comments on the night was his remark about Jay having "no personality whatsoever". That is both very nasty and very unfair. He has always had a personality, just not one that appeals to Craig.”
“. My only objection to Craig's marks/comments on the night was his remark about Jay having "no personality whatsoever". That is both very nasty and very unfair. He has always had a personality, just not one that appeals to Craig.”
Reflecting on this its a vile thing to say to anyone. Extremely personal and hurtful. Rather than needing to, for instance , project your personality. Which is more to do with performance. Badly done Craig.
I liked that paso, even with the grinning (or maybe especially with the grinning; it was the last dance, and its not really a serious competition). It was my #1 for the final round. To be fair though, I prefer serious dances, and yet more charlestons were beginning to trigger an "oh no, not again" emotional response.
This best dancer stuff though - I wonder, what criteria do people use for voting in the final? There are two obvious extremes:
1. Its a selection of the champion for the entire series, and performances across the entire series are weighed and voted on.
2. Only the current round counts, and past performances are ignored. Logically, anyone firmly in this camp would vote after part 1 on the first 2 dances, and in part 2 only on the final round of dances.
I guess most people will have a position somewhere between those extremes. I tend to towards 1 - performances from the whole series counted in my mind, albeit weighted towards recent performances (if only because older shows are slipping from my memory).
This best dancer stuff though - I wonder, what criteria do people use for voting in the final? There are two obvious extremes:
1. Its a selection of the champion for the entire series, and performances across the entire series are weighed and voted on.
2. Only the current round counts, and past performances are ignored. Logically, anyone firmly in this camp would vote after part 1 on the first 2 dances, and in part 2 only on the final round of dances.
I guess most people will have a position somewhere between those extremes. I tend to towards 1 - performances from the whole series counted in my mind, albeit weighted towards recent performances (if only because older shows are slipping from my memory).
Originally Posted by Aurora13:
“Why can't Jay fans just accept that CRH didn't think Jay was the best dancer. Jay won as he was the most popular like every other winner. Some have been the best dancer some haven't. It matters not one jot in a popularity contest.”
“Why can't Jay fans just accept that CRH didn't think Jay was the best dancer. Jay won as he was the most popular like every other winner. Some have been the best dancer some haven't. It matters not one jot in a popularity contest.”
Nah, it's a conspiracy I tells ya
Originally Posted by Huph:
“It was undermarked by one judge. Especially since Kellie got four tens for a tango which wasn't great.”
“It was undermarked by one judge. Especially since Kellie got four tens for a tango which wasn't great.”
I didn't think Kellie's Tango was worthy of a perfect score, but Jay's Paso wasn't either.
Originally Posted by Artois:
“Reflecting on this its a vile thing to say to anyone. Extremely personal and hurtful. Rather than needing to, for instance , project your personality. Which is more to do with performance. Badly done Craig.”
“Reflecting on this its a vile thing to say to anyone. Extremely personal and hurtful. Rather than needing to, for instance , project your personality. Which is more to do with performance. Badly done Craig.
”
I agree... we all have a personality, whether we convey it clearly is another matter. The problem with Craig is he seems to enjoy making comments personal and nasty, but when this backfires in the form of sympathy votes he sulks. Its pretty easy to stop people from sympathising with contestants who get harsh comments...
Originally Posted by Rhumbatugger:
“Because I, for one, just don't agree. For some, it's as if CRH says it, so it must be true, and yet it just... isn't.
The marks seem overegged for Kellie, the playing field, not level, the idea that her scores for the dances make her the 'best' seem just wrong to me.
DVO was assuredly the better dancer, but Louis won.
Natalie was the better dancer, but Abbey won.
Rachel was the better dancer, but Tom won.
Ricky was the better dancer, but Chris won.
For me, and for many, this is just NOT true of Jay and Kellie/Georgia.
It's much, much closer, and can be argued any way. I personally think Jay is the best, something oddly special about his dancing, then Georgia, and then hardworking, correct, energetic Kellie. And that's perfectly valid.
I don't have to talk about PERSONALITY. Jay won on his dancing, at least AS WELL as being liked.”
“Because I, for one, just don't agree. For some, it's as if CRH says it, so it must be true, and yet it just... isn't.
The marks seem overegged for Kellie, the playing field, not level, the idea that her scores for the dances make her the 'best' seem just wrong to me.
DVO was assuredly the better dancer, but Louis won.
Natalie was the better dancer, but Abbey won.
Rachel was the better dancer, but Tom won.
Ricky was the better dancer, but Chris won.
For me, and for many, this is just NOT true of Jay and Kellie/Georgia.
It's much, much closer, and can be argued any way. I personally think Jay is the best, something oddly special about his dancing, then Georgia, and then hardworking, correct, energetic Kellie. And that's perfectly valid.
I don't have to talk about PERSONALITY. Jay won on his dancing, at least AS WELL as being liked.”
I feel too many on here went up to the appreciation thread and created their own reality about Jay. Talking to like minded people just reinforces a single viewpoint. It's known as group think. Jay was a good dancer but given the adverse reaction to comments made by professional judges/experts it does appear that the harsh reality of the bubble being pricked has caused an overflowing of anger. He won. He was the most popular. Be happy. Not everybody buys into the world as seen by Jay fans. It's life. You can't make people think like you do. No amount of stating that you are right and everybody is wrong will change anything. It's an entertainment show in run up to Christmas where viewers vote for their FAVOURITE. No more no less.
Originally Posted by Aurora13:
“I feel too many on here went up to the appreciation thread and created their own reality about Jay. Talking to like minded people just reinforces a single viewpoint. It's known as group think. Jay was a good dancer but given the adverse reaction to comments made by professional judges/experts it does appear that the harsh reality of the bubble being pricked has caused an overflowing of anger. He won. He was the most popular. Be happy. Not everybody buys into the world as seen by Jay fans. It's life. You can't make people think like you do. No amount of stating that you are right and everybody is wrong will change anything. It's an entertainment show in run up to Christmas where viewers vote for their FAVOURITE. No more no less.”
“I feel too many on here went up to the appreciation thread and created their own reality about Jay. Talking to like minded people just reinforces a single viewpoint. It's known as group think. Jay was a good dancer but given the adverse reaction to comments made by professional judges/experts it does appear that the harsh reality of the bubble being pricked has caused an overflowing of anger. He won. He was the most popular. Be happy. Not everybody buys into the world as seen by Jay fans. It's life. You can't make people think like you do. No amount of stating that you are right and everybody is wrong will change anything. It's an entertainment show in run up to Christmas where viewers vote for their FAVOURITE. No more no less.”
I really don't think all Jay fans think like that at all. He was my favourite - I thought he was easily the best dancer - I can fully accept others didn't see it the same way. I thought some of the 'digs' on final night were completely unnecessary but - I really haven't seen anyone spitting their dummy out.
My only gripe about the whole thing (forum wise) is the incredibly spiteful stuff re the Cliftons. I find it incredibly spiteful and juvenile.
I wouldn't have given it a 10 either, the moves were all there but it just didn't make me feel anything unfortunately and apart from his Jive none of his dances really have, it's a case of technically proficient but emotionally lacking for me as an overall comment and five minutes after his routines I just forget them, they don't leave any lasting impression long term bar the Jive and I also think it was a cop out not to do the Jive in the final no matter what his reasons or rationalisations were, it's like having a sleek, cool, fast sports car in the garage and going to work in a mediocre family saloon, reliable but totally unexciting or inspiring.
3 of 6
