That is a great clip!
Sometimes, just sometimes, things just fit together as intended.
Results:Rate the episode.
Fantastic
158 (34.80%)
Good
170 (37.44%)
Average
70 (15.42%)
Poor
31 (6.83%)
Abysmal
25 (5.51%)
Voters: 454. You can't vote on this poll right now - are you signed in?
Doctor Who: The Husbands of River Song. BBC1/HD 25/12/15 17:15. Official Thread
12 of 12
Originally Posted by ea91:
“You have accept that it's just your theory. As far as I'm concerned Capaldi's incarnation has always existed in the timeline we've been shown for the past 50 years or so, irrespective of fixed points and unseen Claras. To me, it's confirmed with the "all thirteen" reference in the 50th. And the Curator Tom Baker incarnation is further proof that there are Doctors after Smith running around. What I will find hard to accept though, is how all potential incarnations in between Capaldi and Curator Tom Baker were never picked up by River and all of the universe and why they didn't feel like showing up to help in the 50th.”
“You have accept that it's just your theory. As far as I'm concerned Capaldi's incarnation has always existed in the timeline we've been shown for the past 50 years or so, irrespective of fixed points and unseen Claras. To me, it's confirmed with the "all thirteen" reference in the 50th. And the Curator Tom Baker incarnation is further proof that there are Doctors after Smith running around. What I will find hard to accept though, is how all potential incarnations in between Capaldi and Curator Tom Baker were never picked up by River and all of the universe and why they didn't feel like showing up to help in the 50th.”
it is not just my theory, though. My theory just tries to make sense of the inconsistencies but the part where there were no other Doctors existing in the timeline was established as incontrovertible fact during season 7. It was the whole point of season 7! There could be no grave if he never died on Trenzalore. We saw his grave, we saw the dead shell of his TARDIS, we saw that he died, we saw Clara confirm that, having been split all across his timeline she never encountered any future Doctors. We saw, on Trenzalore, the Doctor say that his death was a fixed point and that only a force outside the Universe could alter a fixed point like that. Then we saw that outside force do just that.
The idea that the 12th and future Doctors were always part of the timeline, that his extra regenerations on Trenzalore had always happened, cannot be reconciled with the events of season 7. If someone wants to try, I'm all ears, but I don't see any way it can be done other than to just ignore Name of the Doctor entirely!
Originally Posted by GDK:
“I tend to favour the theory which says what happened always happened and always will happen because, whatever you do in the past, though it may be in your personal future, is already part of established events. If you say the time traveller can change events that would lead to paradoxes or create parallel or new timelines.”
“I tend to favour the theory which says what happened always happened and always will happen because, whatever you do in the past, though it may be in your personal future, is already part of established events. If you say the time traveller can change events that would lead to paradoxes or create parallel or new timelines.”
It's true that, in general, the timeline is fairly immutable and the Doctor's actions tend to just lead to what has already happened. It's also been demonstarted that it can be changed. I don't think it's right to just ignore all of those other occurrences!
In any case, this was explicitly made out to be a special case.
They repeatedly emphasised that his death had already happened, that it couldn't be changed except by a force outside the Universe. Then they showed a force outside the Universe changing it. The only conclusion is that the timeline was changed. It would just be perverse to interpret those events any other way, IMO.
Quote:
“So my "head canon" or theory is that the Clara splinters always existed and have always been there, helping Doctor's 1 through 10 from behind the scenes at critical moments, even though we didn't see her in 1963 - 2012 and the Doctor was unaware till part way through 11's tenure.”
“So my "head canon" or theory is that the Clara splinters always existed and have always been there, helping Doctor's 1 through 10 from behind the scenes at critical moments, even though we didn't see her in 1963 - 2012 and the Doctor was unaware till part way through 11's tenure.”
i can't i magine that only two out of the millions of Clara splinters ever showed themselves to the Doctor. It doesn't seem very credible.
Also, if that's how things work, why would the GI think he could change things if the existence of the universe in it's current state implies he failed? Why would things start to fall apart when the GI jumped in and then reset themselves when Clara followed? The show was clearly demonstrating that these splinters had the power to change the timeline.
Quote:
“Which leaves the issue of the Doctor's death at Trenzalore and his timeline persisting there. At some point in the Doctor's distant future he does die on Trenzalore. I don't recall anything which confirmed it was 11 who died there”
“Which leaves the issue of the Doctor's death at Trenzalore and his timeline persisting there. At some point in the Doctor's distant future he does die on Trenzalore. I don't recall anything which confirmed it was 11 who died there”
There was the TARDIS tomb with the cracked window which matched the crack it acquired after its crash-landing on Trenzalore. It doesn't have that crack now.
There was the fact that the TARDIS control room was set in the 11th's configuration.
There was the whole business with Clara returning from being spread across his timeline and explicilty stating that she had seen no other Doctors besides the ones we know about. Now, admittedly, we saw that it's possible to miss a doctor as she never saw the War Doctor but to miss every future Doctor beyond the 11th? That sequence was clearly designed to show that there were no other Doctors.
Besides, it would be a hell of a coincidence to be buried on the same backwater planet that he almost died in the first time.
My own theory is a bit convoluted but, for the Grave we saw on Trenzalore to be some indeterminate future Grave where he died on Trenzalore anyway, with the TARDIS reset to the same Console room that he had when he first landed there and with the TARDIS window cracked in exactly the same way that it was cracked the first time it landed there. It just seems way too big a stretch!
Given that he spent a few hundred years on Trenzalore it's not a stretch to think he developed a special relationship with the locals there as we've seen he has for Earthlings.
Since neither theory is a perfect fit - both lead to logical contradictions - it's back to a matter of preference.
I guess we'll just have to go forward with our beliefs.
And agree to disagree.
Since neither theory is a perfect fit - both lead to logical contradictions - it's back to a matter of preference.
I guess we'll just have to go forward with our beliefs.
And agree to disagree.
In the Doctor Who universe, it has been established since classic who that you can't change the future yourself but external forces can change it.
Like in the space museum which we see that everyone had died in the future and that it can't be changed, but it took the actions of outsiders to save everyone from there impending doom. It is similar to what we saw happen in Trenzalore, that it took outsiders (Clara) to change what they have seen in the future.
Also Day of the Daleks follows this rule
Like in the space museum which we see that everyone had died in the future and that it can't be changed, but it took the actions of outsiders to save everyone from there impending doom. It is similar to what we saw happen in Trenzalore, that it took outsiders (Clara) to change what they have seen in the future.
Also Day of the Daleks follows this rule
Originally Posted by Sam_Gee1:
“In the Doctor Who universe, it has been established since classic who that you can't change the future yourself but external forces can change it.
Like in the space museum which we see that everyone had died in the future and that it can't be changed, but it took the actions of outsiders to save everyone from there impending doom. It is similar to what we saw happen in Trenzalore, that it took outsiders (Clara) to change what they have seen in the future.
Also Day of the Daleks follows this rule”
“In the Doctor Who universe, it has been established since classic who that you can't change the future yourself but external forces can change it.
Like in the space museum which we see that everyone had died in the future and that it can't be changed, but it took the actions of outsiders to save everyone from there impending doom. It is similar to what we saw happen in Trenzalore, that it took outsiders (Clara) to change what they have seen in the future.
Also Day of the Daleks follows this rule”
Yep. If you change a timeline you're directly involved in you can create issues such as a grandfather paradox or causal loop.
For eg. if Hitler's hypothetical grandson travels back to kill granddaddy, he won't need to go back to kill him cos he's already dead, so Hitler won't die.
But if you go back in time for a different reason and kill Hitler by accident there's no paradox because you'll still go back in time from the altered future even though he's dead.
Originally Posted by GDK:
“I guess we'll just have to go forward with our beliefs.
And agree to disagree.”
“I guess we'll just have to go forward with our beliefs.
And agree to disagree.
”
Radical notion but I suppose I can cope with that
Originally Posted by GDK:
“That is a great clip!
Sometimes, just sometimes, things just fit together as intended.”
“That is a great clip!
Sometimes, just sometimes, things just fit together as intended.
”
Yes, and this is really great too.
Someone some years ago did a flowchart for Captain Jack's timeline, which is every bit as complex as River's (he's another of Moffat's creations of course so not exactly unexpected!) and I'm really glad someone has done one for her too, I wouldn't have even known where or when to start!
I hope the guy does now finally complete it after the last episode, which I really enjoyed BTW!
Originally Posted by Dave-H:
“Yes, and this is really great too.
Someone some years ago did a flowchart for Captain Jack's timeline, which is every bit as complex as River's (he's another of Moffat's creations of course so not exactly unexpected!) and I'm really glad someone has done one for her too, I wouldn't have even known where or when to start!
I hope the guy does now finally complete it after the last episode, which I really enjoyed BTW!”
“Yes, and this is really great too.
Someone some years ago did a flowchart for Captain Jack's timeline, which is every bit as complex as River's (he's another of Moffat's creations of course so not exactly unexpected!) and I'm really glad someone has done one for her too, I wouldn't have even known where or when to start!
I hope the guy does now finally complete it after the last episode, which I really enjoyed BTW!”
It just needs a nifty edit now to move Last Night and stick Name of the Doctor and Husbands in (with a Data Ghost River Song arrow coming out of Forest of the Dead and going to Name of the Doctor).
Originally Posted by Dave-H:
“Yes, and this is really great too.
Someone some years ago did a flowchart for Captain Jack's timeline, which is every bit as complex as River's (he's another of Moffat's creations of course so not exactly unexpected!) and I'm really glad someone has done one for her too, I wouldn't have even known where or when to start!
I hope the guy does now finally complete it after the last episode, which I really enjoyed BTW!”
“Yes, and this is really great too.
Someone some years ago did a flowchart for Captain Jack's timeline, which is every bit as complex as River's (he's another of Moffat's creations of course so not exactly unexpected!) and I'm really glad someone has done one for her too, I wouldn't have even known where or when to start!
I hope the guy does now finally complete it after the last episode, which I really enjoyed BTW!”
Captain Jack is actually an RTD creation. He just happened to debut in a Moffat-penned story.
Originally Posted by Abomination:
“Captain Jack is actually an RTD creation. He just happened to debut in a Moffat-penned story.”
“Captain Jack is actually an RTD creation. He just happened to debut in a Moffat-penned story.
”
I knew it Captain Jack did seem RTDish, but everyone kept telling me Moffat created him.
Originally Posted by Abomination:
“Captain Jack is actually an RTD creation. He just happened to debut in a Moffat-penned story.”
“Captain Jack is actually an RTD creation. He just happened to debut in a Moffat-penned story.
”
Ah, my mistake. I had assumed that Steven Moffat actually created the character, although he did appear in many stories that Moffat didn't write of course, unlike River Song, who only appears in his stories I'm pretty sure.
Thinking about it, the fact that RTD built the whole Torchwood series around the character should have been a bit of a giveaway!
Originally Posted by FluxCapacitor:
“SNIP
I'd love to see her with Tennant again. Maybe if there's a future Multi-Doctor story, she can be the catalyst - a pre-"Husbands" River calling for help, resulting in 3 or more Doctors turning up. That scenario holds a great amount of potential and is very realistic in Universe. Obviously she could never SEE 12, or she'd need to have her memory wiped at the end - but it would be a good way to assemble multiple Doctors without too much hassle!”
“SNIP
I'd love to see her with Tennant again. Maybe if there's a future Multi-Doctor story, she can be the catalyst - a pre-"Husbands" River calling for help, resulting in 3 or more Doctors turning up. That scenario holds a great amount of potential and is very realistic in Universe. Obviously she could never SEE 12, or she'd need to have her memory wiped at the end - but it would be a good way to assemble multiple Doctors without too much hassle!”
It's already waiting for us:
Quote:
“RORY: Unless there's two of them.
RIVER: Now, that's a whole different birthday.”
“RORY: Unless there's two of them.
RIVER: Now, that's a whole different birthday.”
from A Good Man Goes To War
Originally Posted by alphonsus:
“It's already waiting for us:
from A Good Man Goes To War”
“It's already waiting for us:
from A Good Man Goes To War”
There was 2 in last night or whatever it was called, and i am pretty sure it was her birthday iirc
This episode continues a trend in the revived show of making the Who-universe small, once more we have something that is the greatest in the galaxy or universe...
The diamond was the rarest most precious diamond in the universe... really, I know you have to sell its importance but is there really any need to resort to such hyperbole, there are planets out there that are full of diamonds on their surface and planets that have a diamond core. With a universe full of planets and all the potential different diamonds out there and the fact the universe is so massive that its mind boggling they are going with that little un-remarkable looking diamond as being known as the most precious.. apparently in the who-verse the whole universe has been mapped out and a most precious diamond has been designated.. couldn't that diamond of just been of significance to the people/races that we saw in the episode rather than the whole massive universe...
The surgeon was the greatest surgeon in the galaxy, did we really need that, couldn't he have been just a great surgeon or if has to the best maybe the best of the planet not the whole galaxy.. it gives the impression that every corner every race every planet has signed up to a galactic census to determine who is the best Doctor/surgeon (did the daleks sign up to this, the sontarans etc).. with all the different kind of life forms isn't it better to imagine/more plausible that its impossible to cover all bases and be a galaxy wide Doctor/surgeon.
I know this is a silly little gripe but it is something that bothers me, the hyperbole that's used by the writer in DW, it makes the who-verse so small that the idea of having a Tardis that can travel anywhere in space becomes totally un-remarkable, because apparently humans and everyone else have mapped the whole universe and can go anywhere and know everything that's in it.... well that just sucks out any excitement about going into the unknown as there is no unknown as where ever the Doc goes humans are also there.
The Tardis should be able to go to places where no human in the entire history of the race (from apes to the end of time) have ever gone, because the universe is MASSIVE and humans could never see it all, only spread out as far as several galaxies at the most. (where you can have plenty of human alien interaction as seen in this ep, but stop throwing in the universe keep it to a group of galaxies)
This is what should create excitement and show what the significance of the Tardis is because its the one machine that can go anywhere in the universe, it can go to billions of galaxies that no human has ever stepped in because its to far out for them.
Star Trek which is only set in a chunk of one galaxy (the milky way) does give that feel of venturing out into the unknown and the wonderment of what could be found, DW is solely lacking this and instead feels like its stuck in some narrow insular group of a dozen star systems where all the different aliens of the various planets all know each.. there's nothing exciting to find out there that's beyond the known knowledge as everything is connected everything is known, humans are everywhere.... they make DW's universe ridiculously small... and that's my gripe rant
The diamond was the rarest most precious diamond in the universe... really, I know you have to sell its importance but is there really any need to resort to such hyperbole, there are planets out there that are full of diamonds on their surface and planets that have a diamond core. With a universe full of planets and all the potential different diamonds out there and the fact the universe is so massive that its mind boggling they are going with that little un-remarkable looking diamond as being known as the most precious.. apparently in the who-verse the whole universe has been mapped out and a most precious diamond has been designated.. couldn't that diamond of just been of significance to the people/races that we saw in the episode rather than the whole massive universe...
The surgeon was the greatest surgeon in the galaxy, did we really need that, couldn't he have been just a great surgeon or if has to the best maybe the best of the planet not the whole galaxy.. it gives the impression that every corner every race every planet has signed up to a galactic census to determine who is the best Doctor/surgeon (did the daleks sign up to this, the sontarans etc).. with all the different kind of life forms isn't it better to imagine/more plausible that its impossible to cover all bases and be a galaxy wide Doctor/surgeon.
I know this is a silly little gripe but it is something that bothers me, the hyperbole that's used by the writer in DW, it makes the who-verse so small that the idea of having a Tardis that can travel anywhere in space becomes totally un-remarkable, because apparently humans and everyone else have mapped the whole universe and can go anywhere and know everything that's in it.... well that just sucks out any excitement about going into the unknown as there is no unknown as where ever the Doc goes humans are also there.
The Tardis should be able to go to places where no human in the entire history of the race (from apes to the end of time) have ever gone, because the universe is MASSIVE and humans could never see it all, only spread out as far as several galaxies at the most. (where you can have plenty of human alien interaction as seen in this ep, but stop throwing in the universe keep it to a group of galaxies)
This is what should create excitement and show what the significance of the Tardis is because its the one machine that can go anywhere in the universe, it can go to billions of galaxies that no human has ever stepped in because its to far out for them.
Star Trek which is only set in a chunk of one galaxy (the milky way) does give that feel of venturing out into the unknown and the wonderment of what could be found, DW is solely lacking this and instead feels like its stuck in some narrow insular group of a dozen star systems where all the different aliens of the various planets all know each.. there's nothing exciting to find out there that's beyond the known knowledge as everything is connected everything is known, humans are everywhere.... they make DW's universe ridiculously small... and that's my gripe rant
Originally Posted by Sam_Gee1:
“There was 2 in last night or whatever it was called, and i am pretty sure it was her birthday iirc”
“There was 2 in last night or whatever it was called, and i am pretty sure it was her birthday iirc”
Yeah, it was a reference to Last Night, I'm pretty sure. One of the many times, apparently, where The Doctor avoided the place he'd end up with River prior to the events of Silence in the Library. Kept cancelling, bless him.
OK, River's all nicely wrapped up, and everything, but just when did the Doctor tell her his name? I'm still not clear on that.
I know we had The Wedding of River Song, but, IIRC, there was no indication that he told her his name nor opportunity. He told her he was in the tesselector when he was meant to be saying his name, as I recall.
Is there a proper wedding ceremony somewhen for River and the Doctor that we haven't seen?
Maybe he did it during the 24 year night on Darillium?
I know we had The Wedding of River Song, but, IIRC, there was no indication that he told her his name nor opportunity. He told her he was in the tesselector when he was meant to be saying his name, as I recall.
Is there a proper wedding ceremony somewhen for River and the Doctor that we haven't seen?
Maybe he did it during the 24 year night on Darillium?
Originally Posted by GDK:
“OK, River's all nicely wrapped up, and everything, but just when did the Doctor tell her his name? I'm still not clear on that.
I know we had The Wedding of River Song, but, IIRC, there was no indication that he told her his name nor opportunity. He told her he was in the tesselector when he was meant to be saying his name, as I recall.
Is there a proper wedding ceremony somewhen for River and the Doctor that we haven't seen?
Maybe he did it during the 24 year night on Darillium?”
“OK, River's all nicely wrapped up, and everything, but just when did the Doctor tell her his name? I'm still not clear on that.
I know we had The Wedding of River Song, but, IIRC, there was no indication that he told her his name nor opportunity. He told her he was in the tesselector when he was meant to be saying his name, as I recall.
Is there a proper wedding ceremony somewhen for River and the Doctor that we haven't seen?
Maybe he did it during the 24 year night on Darillium?
”
I honestly think Moffat has kept one thing back just in case he wants to use her again. As I said in a previous post, a multi Doctor story where he finally tells her his name would be the one final thing we need to end her story - though I'm happy if we never see it, as she's wrapped up nicely now!
Originally Posted by Dave-H:
“Ah, my mistake. I had assumed that Steven Moffat actually created the character, although he did appear in many stories that Moffat didn't write of course, unlike River Song, who only appears in his stories I'm pretty sure.
Thinking about it, the fact that RTD built the whole Torchwood series around the character should have been a bit of a giveaway!
”
“Ah, my mistake. I had assumed that Steven Moffat actually created the character, although he did appear in many stories that Moffat didn't write of course, unlike River Song, who only appears in his stories I'm pretty sure.
Thinking about it, the fact that RTD built the whole Torchwood series around the character should have been a bit of a giveaway!
”
RTD came up with the basics such as his name ( originally jax not jack) moffat added in details such as the missing memories.
RTD never revisited the missing memories storyline as he felt it was moffats to tell.
Just got round to watching this. Had a lot of DVDs for Christmas, plus there has been a lot of programmes during Christmas and in early January that I've wanted to see. Trying to work round this to watch the Christmas Doctor Who story, was not easy.
I had Sky Plussed the episode, so I had it on my Sky box to watch when I wanted to. I saw it on Saturday just after I saw Deep Breath on Watch.
Voted Good, as I thought that it was much better than some of the stories we got during Series 9. I didn't think it was excellent, although it wasn't far off.
Sad to think that now we have lost Clara, River's story is now over, as she will be off to the futuristic Library once she has had her 24 nights with the Twelfth Doctor.
I had Sky Plussed the episode, so I had it on my Sky box to watch when I wanted to. I saw it on Saturday just after I saw Deep Breath on Watch.
Voted Good, as I thought that it was much better than some of the stories we got during Series 9. I didn't think it was excellent, although it wasn't far off.
Sad to think that now we have lost Clara, River's story is now over, as she will be off to the futuristic Library once she has had her 24 nights with the Twelfth Doctor.
Originally Posted by tiggerpooh:
“Just got round to watching this. Had a lot of DVDs for Christmas, plus there has been a lot of programmes during Christmas and in early January that I've wanted to see. Trying to work round this to watch the Christmas Doctor Who story, was not easy.
I had Sky Plussed the episode, so I had it on my Sky box to watch when I wanted to. I saw it on Saturday just after I saw Deep Breath on Watch.
Voted Good, as I thought that it was much better than some of the stories we got during Series 9. I didn't think it was excellent, although it wasn't far off.
Sad to think that now we have lost Clara, River's story is now over, as she will be off to the futuristic Library once she has had her 24 nights with the Twelfth Doctor.”
“Just got round to watching this. Had a lot of DVDs for Christmas, plus there has been a lot of programmes during Christmas and in early January that I've wanted to see. Trying to work round this to watch the Christmas Doctor Who story, was not easy.
I had Sky Plussed the episode, so I had it on my Sky box to watch when I wanted to. I saw it on Saturday just after I saw Deep Breath on Watch.
Voted Good, as I thought that it was much better than some of the stories we got during Series 9. I didn't think it was excellent, although it wasn't far off.
Sad to think that now we have lost Clara, River's story is now over, as she will be off to the futuristic Library once she has had her 24 nights with the Twelfth Doctor.
”
I liked it too, it felt refreshing to see The Doctor not have to pamper to Clara.
I for one can't wait for a fresh start next series, clean slate, Clara has finally dropped dead or whatever and I love River but now that shes gone we can have someone different. I feel like next series will be more uplifting and Peter Capaldi will really shine in it, new companion, new adventures. And maybe after Moffat leaves we can have fresh new ideas and stories, although I feel like there shouldn't just be one headwritter but a team like with RTD.
Originally Posted by tiggerpooh:
“Just got round to watching this. Had a lot of DVDs for Christmas, plus there has been a lot of programmes during Christmas and in early January that I've wanted to see. Trying to work round this to watch the Christmas Doctor Who story, was not easy.
I had Sky Plussed the episode, so I had it on my Sky box to watch when I wanted to. I saw it on Saturday just after I saw Deep Breath on Watch.
Voted Good, as I thought that it was much better than some of the stories we got during Series 9. I didn't think it was excellent, although it wasn't far off.
Sad to think that now we have lost Clara, River's story is now over, as she will be off to the futuristic Library once she has had her 24 nights with the Twelfth Doctor.”
“Just got round to watching this. Had a lot of DVDs for Christmas, plus there has been a lot of programmes during Christmas and in early January that I've wanted to see. Trying to work round this to watch the Christmas Doctor Who story, was not easy.
I had Sky Plussed the episode, so I had it on my Sky box to watch when I wanted to. I saw it on Saturday just after I saw Deep Breath on Watch.
Voted Good, as I thought that it was much better than some of the stories we got during Series 9. I didn't think it was excellent, although it wasn't far off.
Sad to think that now we have lost Clara, River's story is now over, as she will be off to the futuristic Library once she has had her 24 nights with the Twelfth Doctor.
”
Dearie me! You waited a long time to watch! I hope your tru-fan credentials don't get revoked because you didn't watch it live!
Originally Posted by GDK:
“Dearie me! You waited a long time to watch! I hope your tru-fan credentials don't get revoked because you didn't watch it live!”
“Dearie me! You waited a long time to watch! I hope your tru-fan credentials don't get revoked because you didn't watch it live!
”
It will were holding a trial to decide.
12 of 12
