First, full disclosure: I cannot vote from where I live, but I have been following SCD and supported Alesha, Chelsee-Harry, Kara, Natalie, Jay. That's information for those commentators who resort to the 'ovaries-vote' and 'women's jealousy' arguments when they cannot think of anything intelligent and convincing.
Second, in yesterday's Strictly Christmas I preferred Abbey to Tom and Harry, even though I did not think she deserved to win over Natalie in their season and even though I liked Harry very much. I thought that Harry's pigeon toes that Craig used to criticize so much and that Aliona tried to correct during Harry's season were in full view last night. (It makes you wonder, again, about the randomness of the judges' criticism and about the constantly changing values of their 10s.)
However, what I want to offer for your discussion here is a comment that I found on the DM website. When defending Joanne's partnership with Harry during Strictly Christmas, the commentator in question chastised Joanne's detractor in the statement that can be summarized as follows:
‘There are too many foreign professional dancers around; we need to support home-grown talent.’
While I have nothing against the message in the second part of the statement, I find its use in the context above chauvinistic and disturbing.
So - tough luck, Brendan, Aljaz, Pasha, Natalie, Karen, Oti, Giovanni, Gleb, Tristan, your time is over! SCD's Glitterball is for the British-born only! And, while we are checking the pros' immigration papers, why don't you, Bruno and Craig, surrender your seats at the judges' table to Papa Clifton and Mama Clifton? If anybody is a home-grown talent, it's they. (I doubt it’s going to work for James Jordan, though.)
Nepotism, anyone? Is it part of British patriotism? Or is it, again, an attempt to manipulate the GBP with anything that works for one’s protege?
We do need to support home-grown talent - by supporting art/music/drama/dance schools for children, not by propping British-born professionals with inflated marks and shameless promotion.
Last edited by Olivia_P : 26-12-2015 at 16:11

I'm not even sure what we're supposed to reply to.

In my opinion, Harry totally deserved his marks yesterday, so I don't at all agree with the insinuation that the scores were fixed in any way.

I'd imagine that if producers were that desperate for all their British dancers to succeed, then they wouldn't have given Joanne duffer after duffer. I was pleased for her that she finally had a contender, and I feel they rightfully won.

Also, Karen is often included in the comments about overexposure, and she's Venuzuelan!

The pros nationality is utterly irrelevant to me and it doesn't seem to figure very much in the discussions on this forum. I'm sure it matters a bit more to readers of the Daily Mail though....

I've never seen anything to suggest the show favours home grown pros.


(OT: all the celebrity dancers you mentioned have been my favourites, too ... and I also preferred Abbey on the Xmas special).

Oh hey cool a large lump of incoherent ranting that starts off with a counter-argument against the not-actually-made-arguments of a not-really-existent group of people that's not at all schizophrenia no sirreeeee

Agreed, what a bizarre way to start a discussion.

Point taken. Have seen too many sexist messages in the commentaries. Giving an abbreviated version of the OP.

What I want to offer for your discussion here is a comment that I found on the DM website. When defending Joanne's partnership with Harry during Strictly Christmas, the commentator in question chastised Joanne's detractor in the statement that can be summarized as follows:
‘There are too many foreign professional dancers around; we need to support home-grown talent.’
While I have nothing against the message in the second part of the statement, I find its use in the context above chauvinistic and disturbing.
So - tough luck, Brendan, Aljaz, Pasha, Natalie, Karen, Oti, Giovanni, Gleb, Tristan, your time is over! SCD's Glitterball is for the British-born only! And, while we are checking the pros' immigration papers, why don't you, Bruno and Craig, surrender your seats at the judges' table to Papa Clifton and Mama Clifton? If anybody is a home-grown talent, it's they. (I doubt it’s going to work for James Jordan, though.)
Nepotism, anyone? Is it part of British patriotism? Or is it, again, an attempt to manipulate the GBP with anything that works for one’s protege?
We do need to support home-grown talent - by supporting art/music/drama/dance schools for children, not by propping British-born professionals with inflated marks and shameless promotion.

I genuinely don't understand the point(s) you are trying to make OP.

Merry Christmas, Oicho Throw! There must be a remedy for your hangover. It will clear your head and make things much more comprehensible.

OK. so the Cliftons are an awful shower and I commend your efforts to give a new angle (though it turns out being the usual stale old angle - Kevin gets overmarked) to that most tired of threads, the almost daily Clifton-bashing thread.

What a load of tosh,someone has obviously been at the cooking sherry,or their trying to get a story for their editorial for the Sunday's rags.

I am wondering if that's a new direction SCD is going to take: firing foreign-born dancers and bringing mediocre British-born replacement instead.

What on earth makes you think that? A random forum post on the Daily Fail?

The last three pros hired were Gleb, Oti, and Giovanni. Hardly British... And the last Brit hired was Jo Clifton who can be accused of many things but not mediocrity - she's a world champ...

At the risk of sounding belligerent
1) It's the Daily Mail.... let me repeat that, the Daily Mail and 2) It's the comment section there. The comments there are at best woeful and many are racist, xenophobic, chauvinistic, egotistic and other other "ic"'s that you can add to the list. Comments there are to be taken with a hefty pinch of salt and preferably a large tequila to go with it.

2) Arguement vs counter arguement. Usually when it's one of those threads where there are replies then it just gets into a personal "I'm going to say the exact opposite of you jut to annoy you" childish playground discussions. So, again I would read with a raised eyebrow and not absorb.

IMHO there is nothing wrong with foreign nationals being pros on SCD so long as they speak a decent level of English (and I have to say I love the "charl-es-ston) moments from non-native speakers.

Secondly, where do you draw the line - what if for example someone has a British passport but was born abroad and moved to the UK when they were very young. Are they disqualified. What if they are married to a Brit, have children who are Brits, are settled in the UK and no intentions of leaving (e.g. Brendan). Are they perpetually disqualified? That's where the pedants of the world start to fall off their pedestals.

Would more British Pros be welcome? Well I would say it's nice to have them e.g. Matthew Cutler, Ian Waite, Darren Bennet etc all added a lot to the show during their time. However having the different influences that the Aliona, Brendan, Kristina's etc of the world bring to the show makes it all the more interesting.

Vive la difference

Yes, it was the post that i quoted and that was supported by quite a few.
I have nothing against Cliftons in general and Joanne in particular (although I don't like Kevin as a dancer and avoid watching him as much as I can).
However, I am against their high concentration in one program, especially if it is done under the pretext of promoting home-grown talent and at the expense of talented foreign dancers.

You seem to be trying to create an argument out of something that isn't even likely to happen though. What on earth makes you think the BBC is suddenly going to change their dancer recruitment and pick mediocre British dancers instead of on merit regardless of nationality?

A forum post on the Daily Mail is not indicative in any way of the way the BBC think and you seem to be trying to act like it is something that's being actively considered...

I understand your point of view, and it's one that is no doubt shared by a fair few others, but I'm still not convinced. Joanne wasn't even give a partner this series, but still participated in the group dances and appeared on It Takes Two, presumably to fill her contractual obligations of working during the 2 month period.

Kevin does seem to get a fair bit of exposure on the programme, but he seems to be someone who openly embraces the eccentricity and pantomime-like nature of the programme. Some of the other pros seem too "cool" to join in on some of the silliness, so perhaps that's why the Cliftons are sometimes 'favoured'.

I'll be sure to be on the lookout for coded EDL messages when Joanne next does Choreography Corner...

Why not support our home grown pros? Why do we have to knock them? If there's an eight year kid watching the program they might think it's possible to be the next Kevin or Joanne. It probably looks more difficult to be the next Gleb, Darcy, or Artem. The BBC seems to have been given a remit, as public service broadcaster, to make people active and getting people to dance. Good role models help with that.

In order to take part in the silliness you need to understand the humour so some pro's will 'get it' quicker than others. It will obviously be easier for home grown pro's like Kevin & Anton than most of the foreign pro's. Pasha tries but doesn't always pull it off.

We should neither knock Kevin because he's homegrown, nor support him for the same reason. If he floats your boat, his nationality shouldn't come into it.

I don't understand why being the next Artem or Gleb feels less attainable than being the next Joanne and Darcy's British, isn't she? so.....? I must admit, I'm confused as to what argument you're actually making! In fact Jo and Darcy were truly at the top of their respective trees. Does that make emulating them seem more or less attainable? (Properly confused, now )

Humour and laughter is universal. You don't need to speak a language at a native level to be silly and let yourself go. I think some pros just have too big egos to partake.

It's easier to compare yourself to someone from Grimsby, as they keep reminding us, rather than someone who had the best classical dance training from a very young age. Not every kid has that particular opportunity. Knowing that you can grow up in your home town and still reach the top will be a big boost to many kids.

Kevin and Joanne were taught from a young age by their world champion parents, though. Not an opportunity that all kids have!

Well, I suppose the Grimsby part is relatable, but Kevin and Jo did have the tiny leg up of having ballroom world champs as parents and teachers . (I don't say that to diminish what they've achieved in their own right, btw, just not sure it made them Everychild...).

Is it less inspirational to come from poverty in Russia and make a good life for yourself through ballroom dancing? Or come from nothing in Cuba like Carlos Acosta and become perhaps the most exciting male dancer of his generation? I don't think kids want to emulate someone because they're British, I think they want to be like someone they admire. Do they want to be Kevin? Or do they want to be Gleb or Aljaž or Carlos? Not being flippant - it's a genuine question.

Yes Kevin and Joanne are more "relatable" than the Gleb's or Kristina's of the world in terms of looks, accents etc (although to be honest I find Joanne to be very pretty actually).

However I have read some of the back stories to some of the Pro's and they are not all from privileged backgrounds and have got to where they are by virtue of hard work, determination and a bit of luck in a lot of cases. Do remember than Jo and Kevin had parents who were former World Champions and both started dancing as young kids e.g. Jo was 3 years old when she entered her first competition

Yes there are some e.g. Karen that went via the "Fame" school route but there are plenty that sought and fought for opportunities to dance and were not gifted them by any means

e.g.
Gleb started dancing at 8 and was raised during Soviet Union and was only able to attend lessons with the financial help of his grandparents and uncle and parents collectively and with a round trip of four hours for training sessions

Kristina started dancing at 5 but was raised in what was then the Soviet Union with limitations and she started teaching at 15 as a means of earning money for her family

Ola only started dancing at 10 whilst at school and was noticed by teachers there.

Tristan started dancing at 9 because his father was in the army and mum was working so was looked after his grandparents who started dancing and took him and his sister along for the ride.

Anton only started at 14

Aliona started ballet at 5 but only started ballroom at 11.