DS Forums

 
 

Final Scene Retconning of Fatboys Death


Reply
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 27-12-2015, 00:48
MinaH
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 2,055

Stupid beyond belief. Ronnie tried to have Vincent killed and Vincent accepts that. Ronnie tells Vincent she tried to have him killed but she is scared they may have killed someone else. Vincent goes off on his own without his car and gets to the breakers yard somewhere far outside Walford very quickly. He then opens an unlocked boot that is not crushed and we see Vincent's face recoil in horror. At that precise moment Claudette walks into the pub.

Ronnie, Roxy and Jack arrive at the breakers yard and there then follows a set of embarrassed actors shuffling around embarrassed at what they have to act. Ronnie plays a weak girl asking for Vincent for all the answers ... what have I done boo hoo tell me Vincent what have I done boo hoo - I only meant to have you killed boo hoo what have I done Vincent boo hoo. Vincent now in control says it was empty so I had my car crushed the guys ran off with the money.

Then later we hear a daft bit of retconning between Vincent and Claudette. Despite seeing Fatboy confronting Vincent then walking out of Walford for good. Somehow we are expected to believe half hour later Claudette hands Fatboy the keys to Vincents sports car so that he could get some ice for Vincent - some ice in the late evening on Christmas Eve when all the shops are likely closing ... and the reason for that is because Fatboy wants to make it up to Vincent - yet Vincent was the one threatening his beloved Dot just moments earlier in order to run Fatboy out of town for "crossing him". Vincent tells his mother - that she was the one, she Claudette was the one supposed to have got the ice. So now he is angry at Claudette for getting Fatboy killed and then and then ... I can't go on it is too stupid ... I am lost for words. Now he is covering up for Ronnie. Too stupid for words.

So after 6 years Fatboy is killed off off screen with a stupid stupid bit of retconning in his last scene when he is angrily walking out of Walford square.

Did anyone else spot any DTC script nonsense?
MinaH is offline   Reply With Quote
Please sign in or register to remove this advertisement.
Old 27-12-2015, 01:18
MinaH
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 2,055
Then in order to quickly move the audience on from this daft bit of retconning and huge plot crevices ... DTC opens up a whole new set of storylines to distract the viewer

1) Claudette "accidentally" revealing Vincent's father was weak and walked out on her.

2) Alfie turning up with the kids and asking Kat "why did you walk out on us"

3) A new storyline of Ian being arrested for dangerous driving and Sharon wanting to kill him for putting the life of her Dennis into jeopardy.

4) The Bobby - Lucy storyline seems like it is going to fizzle out with Bobby being sent to boarding school.

5) Nail gate - Jug gate. Dean's Christmas being turned upside down because his Mum & Dad had a Christmas meal at the Queen Vic and so were unable to eat the Christmas Dinner they knew he was preparing. Jade finding a nail in the dinner. Shirley, Buster, Amy and Jade all leaving Dean angrily to go back to the pub. Dean blaming Roxy, throwing a Jug at her, Roxy leaving Dean. Dean saying it was very very important to him that today was perfect. Roxy returning with Dean alone back into the house ... with everyone knowing ...

Spoiler


Also to look forward to ... Stacey and the ...

Spoiler
MinaH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-12-2015, 07:09
MinaH
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 2,055
... Then later we hear a daft bit of retconning between Vincent and Claudette. Despite seeing Fatboy confronting Vincent then walking out of Walford for good. Somehow we are expected to believe half hour later Claudette hands Fatboy the keys to Vincents sports car so that he could get some ice for Vincent ...
I got the timing on this bit wrong. The Fatboy - Vincent street confrontation occurred AFTER Ronnie asked Vincent to get the ice,

This changes everything. There is now enough information available to work out what DTC had happened and it works if you stretch certain aspects of credulity.

What we know
a) We know that Claudette was suspicious about Ronnie asking Vincent to get ice because she had run out of it - Claudette spotted ice in the pint glass and saw Ronnie making a phone call and she may have seen there was an overload of ice in the cabinet when Ronnie opened it.

b) We know from Ronnie that she told her goons to tie him up, gag him, put him in the boot, and take him to the scrapyard. That we know. Ronnie also says they were only meant to scare Vincent and not kill him.

c) Vincent and Claudette were then seen walking out of their house with Vincent walking towards his car making as if he was going to get into it. Along comes Fatboy who confronts Vincent saying "believe it or not I went behind your back, I was going to HAVE YOU AND YOUR FAMILY, trying to stop you doing something stupid ... if you hurt Mrs B I will come and find you .... good luck brov, I think you're going to need it" - Fatboy then heads off to get the train at Walford Station. Claudette heard this.

d) Now we know from Claudette later that she then told Vincent to give her the keys so she would get the ice instead of Vincent. So we know Vincent must have agreed and walked off wherever. So Claudette now has the car keys.

e) So Claudette is in the car and drives towards Fatboy and stops and asks to speak to him. We know from Claudette that she CLAIMED that Fatboy decided to get the ice for Vincent because Claudette persuaded him he was in the wrong and Fatboy decided he would run this errand by way of an apology. So he takes the keys and the car to get the ice. [This we know from what Claudette told Vincent when Vincent returned from the scrapyard.]

f) We know that Claudette went missing and didn't arrive back in Walford Square until Vincent himself was in the scrapyard and looking at the contents of the car boot.

Hence this is what must have happened:
Spoiler


Conclusion[
Okay no retconning I apologise. My mistake. Everything works. Everything fits.

But for me - why does DTC have to convolute everything up so much ?
MinaH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-12-2015, 07:19
Ouroboros
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 1,603
Nope just not seeing it like that at all there is no way Fatboy would have done that he was finished with Vincent and doing him favors.
Ouroboros is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-12-2015, 07:25
ICON111
Forum Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: DS
Posts: 3,101
I got the timing on this bit wrong. The Fatboy - Vincent street confrontation occurred AFTER Ronnie asked Vincent to get the ice,

This changes everything. There is now enough information available to work out what DTC had happened and it works if you stretch certain aspects of credulity.

What we know
a) We know that Claudette was suspicious about Ronnie asking Vincent for ice - she spotted ice in the pint glass and saw Ronnie making a phone call and she may have seen there was ice in the cabinet when Ronnie opened it.

b) We know from Ronnie that she told her goons to tie him up, gag him, put him in the boot, and take him to the scrapyard. That we know. Ronnie also says they were only meant to scare Vincent and not kill him.

c) Vincent and Claudette were then seen walking out of their house with Vincent walking towards his car making as if he was going to get into it. Along comes Fatboy who confronts Vincent saying "believe it or not I went behind your back, I was going to have you AND your FAMILY trying to stop you doing something stupid ... if you hurt Mrs B I will come and find you .... good luck brov, I think you're going to need it" - Fatboy then heads off to get the train at Walford Station. Claudette heard this.

d) Now we know from Claudette later that she then told Vincent to give her the keys so she would get the ice instead of Vincent. So we know Vincent must have agreed and walked off wherever.

e) So Claudette is in the car and drives towards Fatboy and stops and asks to speak to him. We know from Claudette that she CLAIMED that Fatboy decided to get the ice for Vincent because Claudette persuaded him he was in the wrong and Fatboy decided to he would run this errand by way of an apology. So he takes the keys and the car to get the ice. This we know from what she told Vincent when Vincent returned from the scrapyard.

f) We know that Claudette went missing and didn't arrive back in Walford Square until Vincent himself was in the scrapyard and looking at the contents of the car boot.

Hence this is what must have happened:
Spoiler


Conclusion
Okay no retconning I apologise. My mistake. Everything works. Everything fits.

But for me - why does DTC have to convolute everything up so much ?
Great analysis here. I agree with that 100%,

I would add though that...

I think Fatboy died of panic attack/suffocation. We all know by now that he hated confined spaces. I can't imagine how terrified he must been. Especially with Ronnie gloating at him that he was going to be crushed.
ICON111 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-12-2015, 07:26
ICON111
Forum Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: DS
Posts: 3,101
Nope just not seeing it like that at all there is no way Fatboy would have done that he was finished with Vincent and doing him favors.
Claudette is very manipulative and Fatboy always had a forgiving nature to him so it is plausible.
ICON111 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-12-2015, 07:34
Ouroboros
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 1,603
Claudette is very manipulative and Fatboy always had a forgiving nature to him so it is plausible.
Still not convinced just doesn't make any sense but then it doesn't really need too as we know if the scriptwriters say someone is dead that's that it doesn't need to make sense.
Ouroboros is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-12-2015, 07:37
MinaH
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 2,055
Great analysis here. I agree with that 100%,

I would add though that...

I think Fatboy died of panic attack/suffocation. We all know by now that he hated confined spaces. I can't imagine how terrified he must been. Especially with Ronnie gloating at him that he was going to be crushed.
This is equally possible. If Fatboy died of fright this would change the spoiler to the following:

Spoiler
MinaH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-12-2015, 07:42
Lizzie Brookes
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 13,318
I got the timing on this bit wrong. The Fatboy - Vincent street confrontation occurred AFTER Ronnie asked Vincent to get the ice,

This changes everything. There is now enough information available to work out what DTC had happened and it works if you stretch certain aspects of credulity.

What we know
a) We know that Claudette was suspicious about Ronnie asking Vincent to get ice because she had run out of it - Claudette spotted ice in the pint glass and saw Ronnie making a phone call and she may have seen there was an overload of ice in the cabinet when Ronnie opened it.

b) We know from Ronnie that she told her goons to tie him up, gag him, put him in the boot, and take him to the scrapyard. That we know. Ronnie also says they were only meant to scare Vincent and not kill him.

c) Vincent and Claudette were then seen walking out of their house with Vincent walking towards his car making as if he was going to get into it. Along comes Fatboy who confronts Vincent saying "believe it or not I went behind your back, I was going to HAVE YOU AND YOUR FAMILY, trying to stop you doing something stupid ... if you hurt Mrs B I will come and find you .... good luck brov, I think you're going to need it" - Fatboy then heads off to get the train at Walford Station. Claudette heard this.

d) Now we know from Claudette later that she then told Vincent to give her the keys so she would get the ice instead of Vincent. So we know Vincent must have agreed and walked off wherever. So Claudette now has the car keys.

e) So Claudette is in the car and drives towards Fatboy and stops and asks to speak to him. We know from Claudette that she CLAIMED that Fatboy decided to get the ice for Vincent because Claudette persuaded him he was in the wrong and Fatboy decided he would run this errand by way of an apology. So he takes the keys and the car to get the ice. [This we know from what Claudette told Vincent when Vincent returned from the scrapyard.]

f) We know that Claudette went missing and didn't arrive back in Walford Square until Vincent himself was in the scrapyard and looking at the contents of the car boot.

Hence this is what must have happened:
Spoiler


Conclusion[
Okay no retconning I apologise. My mistake. Everything works. Everything fits.

But for me - why does DTC have to convolute everything up so much ?
If this is true, then Claudette is a monster - worse even than Ronnie.
Lizzie Brookes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-12-2015, 07:47
Ouroboros
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 1,603
The way I see it is the scriptwriters changed their minds after the last scene with Fatboy was filmed with him walking off so they then had to cobble together a story to make it so he died instead of just leaving that's the impression I got from what was actually shown hence no shots of his body.
Ouroboros is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-12-2015, 08:40
MinaH
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 2,055
... I think Fatboy died of panic attack/suffocation. We all know by now that he hated confined spaces. I can't imagine how terrified he must been. Especially with Ronnie gloating at him that he was going to be crushed.
Having reflected on it I think I agree this is the most likely scenario - that Fatboy died of fright rather than being murdered because ...

... DTC wouldn't have added that scene with Fatboy being locked in the cupboard under the stairs and all that follow up stuff where new information on Fatboy's childhood was revealed including him being terrified of being in confined spaces.

At the time it was built up as part of a scenario of Fatboy outgrowing his childhood demons and becoming a serious, mature man - Arthur ... Fatboy is dead long live Arthur!

... but that scheming bar steward of a man DTC was actually setting Fatboy up for a fall, a very nasty fall. There was no Arthur it was all a scam - Fatboy was Fatboy, poor scaredy cat Fatboy and that's how he died.

Does DTC not sleep at night?
MinaH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-12-2015, 08:53
sw2963
Forum Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 7,261
Horrible death justified for Dean or Ronnie herself
sw2963 is offline Follow this poster on Twitter   Reply With Quote
Old 27-12-2015, 08:57
Ouroboros
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 1,603
Having reflected on it I think I agree this is the most likely scenario - that Fatboy died of fright rather than being murdered because ...

... DTC wouldn't have added that scene with Fatboy being locked in the cupboard under the stairs and all that follow up stuff where new information on Fatboy's childhood was revealed including him being terrified of being in confined spaces.

At the time it was built up as part of a scenario of Fatboy outgrowing his childhood demons and becoming a serious, mature man - Arthur ... Fatboy is dead long live Arthur!

... but that scheming bar steward of a man DTC was actually setting Fatboy up for a fall, a very nasty fall. There was no Arthur it was all a scam - Fatboy was Fatboy, poor scaredy cat Fatboy and that's how he died.

Does DTC not sleep at night?
I would imagine he sleeps as well as anyone else who is involved with a fictional drama with fictional characters, he probably has way more important things going on in his life to worry about too.
Ouroboros is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-12-2015, 09:11
MinaH
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 2,055
I would imagine he sleeps as well as anyone else who is involved with a fictional drama with fictional characters, he probably has way more important things going on in his life to worry about too.
Yes but in my ironic world DTC is an evil man inflicting a horrible death in the minds of his viewers that have spent 6 years of their lives following this ultimately kind hearted and innocent character.

And it is important to DTC because this is his job and presumably he partly defines himself by this job, and this job also brings in the money and opens the doors that allows him do what he does outside of it.
MinaH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-12-2015, 09:15
Ouroboros
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 1,603
Yes but in my ironic world DTC is an evil man inflicting a horrible death in the minds of his viewers that have spent 6 years of their lives following this ultimately kind hearted and innocent character.

And it is important to DTC because this is his job and presumably he partly defines himself by this job, and this job also brings in the money and opens the doors that allows him do what he does outside of it.
Oh I see, maybe I just don't take it that seriously.
Ouroboros is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-12-2015, 09:21
MinaH
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 2,055
Oh I see, maybe I just don't take it that seriously.
But you do watch it? And while your watching it you are in some way engaged with what happens I suppose and would like to understand what is going on in terms of motive etc. ?
MinaH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-12-2015, 09:25
Ouroboros
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 1,603
But you do watch it? And while your watching it you are in some way engaged with what happens I suppose and would like to understand what is going on in terms of motive etc. ?
Nope just entertainment that often provides the occasional chuckle for me nothing more nothing less.
Ouroboros is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-12-2015, 09:33
vald
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 31,002
But how did Claudette know how to contact the goons ? Did she just drive around with Fats in the car until someone stopped them. Why would Fats just sit there passively while she did her deal with the goons. And would she just happen to have a wad of money on her to pay them off. She doesn't work and is just a retired foster mother.
vald is online now Follow this poster on Twitter   Reply With Quote
Old 27-12-2015, 09:36
Ouroboros
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 1,603
But how did Claudette know how to contact the goons ? Did she just drive around with Fats in the car until someone stopped them. Why would Fats just sit there passively while she did her deal with the goons. And would she just happen to have a wad of money on her to pay them off. She doesn't work and is just a retired foster mother.
Apparently Claudette is able to hypnotize people into doing what she wants all part of the magic act that allows her to transport someone who has already left the square into the boot of a car too.
Ouroboros is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-12-2015, 09:52
Ancalagon
Forum Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 1,615
But how did Claudette know how to contact the goons ? Did she just drive around with Fats in the car until someone stopped them. Why would Fats just sit there passively while she did her deal with the goons. And would she just happen to have a wad of money on her to pay them off. She doesn't work and is just a retired foster mother.
Claudette would not have needed to speak to the goons. Ronnie already made it clear that she was stupidly vague about who they were meant to grab, she simply told them to get the driver.

Claudette only had to make sure it was Fatboy driving and not Vincent, easy enough for her.
Ancalagon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-12-2015, 09:56
Ancalagon
Forum Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 1,615
Apparently Claudette is able to hypnotize people into doing what she wants all part of the magic act that allows her to transport someone who has already left the square into the boot of a car too.
Or... she simply intervened and made sure Fatboy was driving the car and not Vincent.

Ronnies goons did what they were meant to, they grabbed the driver and bundled him into the car.

Claudette then made sure Vincent was "missing" from the square long enough to make Ronnie believe her plan had worked.

We saw Fatboy walking away from Vincent on Christmas eve, he was still very much on the square, it's really not as convoluted as you would have it that off screen, Claudette manipulated the situation and tricked a forgiving Fatboy that she "would smooth things over with Vincent" for him.
Ancalagon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-12-2015, 09:56
MinaH
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 2,055
But how did Claudette know how to contact the goons ? Did she just drive around with Fats in the car until someone stopped them. Why would Fats just sit there passively while she did her deal with the goons. And would she just happen to have a wad of money on her to pay them off. She doesn't work and is just a retired foster mother.
I don't think there is any spoiler material in your comment because my spoilers were in fact "conclusions" drawn from evidence taken from episodes already broadcast - as outlined in my a to f of comment #3. But I thought it was safer to put it into spoilers.

The finer details are for DTC to either reveal to us or conveniently ignore.

All I am saying is that given what is known (a to f) and assuming what Ronnie said was correct then I think the bounds of possibility would suggest Claudette was involved. It is clear that the Goons were watching Vincent Car and somewhere along the way they intervened and made their presence known. If they were not watching the car then some form of tracking device would have had to be placed on it beforehand.
MinaH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-12-2015, 09:57
vald
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 31,002
Claudette would not have needed to speak to the goons. Ronnie already made it clear that she was stupidly vague about who they were meant to grab, she simply told them to get the driver.

Claudette only had to make sure it was Fatboy driving and not Vincent, easy enough for her.
I was talking about Mina's spoiler speculation:


Whatever happened Claudette must have persuaded Fatboy to get in the car.

Somehow Claudette must have bought off Ronnies goons and asked them what they were planning to do.

She must have asked them to carry out their plans but to kill the victim at the scrapyard rather than to scare him and paid them extra money for it.
vald is online now Follow this poster on Twitter   Reply With Quote
Old 27-12-2015, 10:04
MinaH
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 2,055
I was talking about Mina's spoiler speculation:


Whatever happened Claudette must have persuaded Fatboy to get in the car.

Somehow Claudette must have bought off Ronnies goons and asked them what they were planning to do.

She must have asked them to carry out their plans but to kill the victim at the scrapyard rather than to scare him and paid them extra money for it.
Claudette herself said that she gave the car keys to fatboy because fatboy wanted to run this errand as way of an apology to what he said and did to Vincent. The question is does this claim of Claudette sound right. You have to accept this if Claudette is to be innocent of any involvement in what happened later.

"d) Now we know from Claudette later that she then told Vincent to give her the keys so she would get the ice instead of Vincent. So we know Vincent must have agreed and walked off wherever. So Claudette now has the car keys.

e) So Claudette is in the car and drives towards Fatboy and stops and asks to speak to him. We know from Claudette that she CLAIMED that Fatboy decided to get the ice for Vincent because Claudette persuaded him he was in the wrong and Fatboy decided he would run this errand by way of an apology. So he takes the keys and the car to get the ice. [This we know from what Claudette told Vincent when Vincent returned from the scrapyard.] "
MinaH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-12-2015, 10:11
Paul Wilson
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 3,256
Personally I thought it was a terrific - if very, very dark - piece of television. The only bit that didn't quite work for me was when Ronnie was taunting what she thought was Vincent in the back of the car why the hell didn't Fatboy shout out 'Ronnie it's me?'
Paul Wilson is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Reply




 
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 14:22.