Pakistan 6/4 now a Stan James.......I've a nibble on the basis that england will probably lose 3 or 4 wickets before drawing level......then Pakistan would be odds on.....then you can hedge on England !

i did specifically say if someone was good enough, as per kallis as you mention, to get into the side on their batting alone and can contribute with the ball as more than just a part-timer i have no problem with that

my position here is that if we were to decide that vince needed to be replaced i do not agree with the principle of picking someone who wouldn't get into the team on their batting alone but try to justify it on the basis of "at least they give us another bowling option" when we really should not need that extra bowling , and that i would prefer to pick someone purely on their batting ability

Dont forget the rain ....a draw could still happen

oh well.......I've had a winner on the horses today so just playing with winnings !

Is it 1972 ?

I absolutely agree with that and don't think I have said anything to the contrary.

Speaking specifically now, though - Moeen in your opinion isn't good enough as a batsmen, whilst I think that's open to debate. But as I have said already, given the current choices available, I would have no problem whatsoever replacing Vince or Ballance with Moeen and then getting in a front-line spinner. The extra bowling would be a bonus.

the reason i am against that is i dont think that solves the problem we have

you are not improving the batting side of the team by replacing a batsman with a bowler, what we would be doing is weakening the batting and adding an extra bowler that we shouldn't actually need

what i am saying is if we decide that vince needs to be replaced we should look to improve the team not weaken it, bringing in a borthwick or a hildreth might not work but at least its being done for the right reason imo

The stats do seem to go against what would seem likely

Opening partnership of 35 off 10 overs with Cook 29 off 24 balls and Hales 5 off 37 balls !!

me and bhav mentioned this during the first test i think, cook quite often scores his first 20 or so runs quickly and then settles down

dont know if its just nerves and he plays at deliveries early that he leaves later or not

Overall, I do agree with you, but at this moment in time, I wouldn't mind bumping up Moeen in order to bring in Rashid, who is better than a tail-ender with the bat.

I think your analysis depends on believing that Borthwick (et al) is a solid better bat than Moeen, but Moeen was a top-order batsmen until England bumped him down the order and gave him an 'all-rounder slot'. I don't see this as cut and dried as I think your posts are saying.

In the meantime, who's this plodder that England have opening with Cook?

This just shows our lack of trust in spinners. Pakistan bring on Yasir after 14 overs, we brought on Ali after 50 odd

In spinners, or in Moeen specifically?

These people have bowling coaches. They should be making sure that the bowlers are well clear of the protected area


Mooen has now had 46 test innings. Thanks to his 63 in the first innings, his average is now 30. This does not make him a test batter

Understood, but I think he's been mucked about a lot in the order, which won't have helped him.

i think thats where we are disagreeing

its about whether borthwick is a better batsman than rashid or whether rashid is a better bowler than moeen

i repeat what i said earlier, the problem i believe we are trying to solve is how to improve our batting and we dont do that by dropping a batsman and replacing him with a bowler

by dropping vince and just moving everyone up a spot and dropping in another bowler at #9 we weaken the batting, or at best dont improve it, and what we gain is another bowler that we shouldn't need. overall we aren't really doing anything to make the TEAM better

if we are going to make changes at least try to do something that might make us better not just say "well it cant be any worse"

But the lower he gets in the order the more not outs he could get

At 32 behind it is major advantage England now.

If Rashid is brought in for Vince and Mo bats at 3 and isn't our front line spinner we don't have that issue because Ali is playing as a batsman

I see what you mean

Hales has nearly caught Cook now

(albeit off a lot more deliveries)

Ali at 3. You cannot be serious

yes we do, as ali is already in the team and already bats, the personnel change we would be making is dropping a batsman for a bowler to try and improve the batting

he wouldn't bat at #3 anyway as we wouldn't move root back down

put it this way a 5/6/7 of bairstow/moeen/woakes does not inspire me with any confidence whatsoever

After reading you for all these years let's be honest a 5/6/7 of Stewart/Gooch/Botham wouldn't either

if thats how you feel then there is no point discussing anything with you, welcome to my ignore list

I am on his ignore list and it leaves me free to quote him when I feel it is appropriate. However, unlike him, I do avoid making it personal