We have just had a bit of an upsetting (and slightly odd, maybe) experience, and I just wanted to post about to see if anyone who is knowledgeable about dog breeding might be around, to give their thoughts? Could be a long one, so thank you to anyone who takes the time to read this.

My hubby and I have been searching for a pug puppy; after deciding the time is right for a dog in our lives, and doing lots of breed research, we decided that a pug would be the right dog for us.

I contacted someone via a well-known breeder directory and she herself didn't have pups available as she only owned a stud dog, but she gave me the contact details of a a breeder friend of hers whose "mummy pup" (I won't use the correct term due to its other meaning and I am not sure whether my post would get banned!!) was pregnant by her stud dog. She had just had (this was at the end Nov) the pregnancy confirmed and was due over Christmas. So we had good reason to believe this breeder is a decent one. I called the breeder, we had a chat, she asked me a few questions and she told me that she would get in touch once the pups had been born.

We then became friends on Facebook and she appeared to be who she said she was, she owned a couple of pugs, had lots of breeder people as her friends, and there were lots of pics on her page, however absolutely no sign that one of them was pregnant. I didn't really think anything of this because I can completely understand someone not wanting to advertise this all over facebook! We spoke a few times via private messages, I asked her lots of questions about pugs and puppy rearing in general and she seemed to be very knowledgeable. She told me she'd had a litter the previous year and indeed there were photos of those pups on her page. She sent me a few photos via private message of the pregnant pug, who did look very pregnant! She told me that the mum had been scanned, and it was thought that she would be having 4 puppies.

I am 99.9% sure that at the time I originally spoke to her on the phone (towards the end of November) she had told me the pups were due on Christmas day. On Christmas eve I messaged her to ask if it looked like she'd be having some pups for Christmas Day and she said no, they were due the Wednesday after Christmas (ie three days ago). So I thought well I will just wait to hear from her. Wednesday came and went and I heard nothing, and there was still no indication of anything on her Facebook page. But then late on New years eve, she posted something which was a bit cryptic, and words to the effect of what a bad year 2015 had been and she was feeling absolutely drained. I messaged her to ask if all was OK, and she replied to tell me that unfortunately, the mum had gone in for a C section earlier that evening due to having some discharge, and when they opened her up they only found one pup and it was dead, and that she was absolutely devestated. Obviously I was gutted for her

So... for anyone who genuinely knows about the world of dog breeding, my questions are... can this happen with a bona fide breeder? Losing a pup at this stage? And is it normal for the ultrasound scans to not be reliable in terms of the amount of pups due?

Thanks to anyone who can help.

Sorry I'm not going to be much help but tbh it's hard to say. The misinformation is strange, yes, and although I'd have alarm bells ringing it's not necessarily indicative of unethical breeding.

Nor is losing a pup. Things can go wrong with best, most experienced breeder - it's not always easy or straightforward which is why well-meaning pet owners shouldn't dabble. It's not something I've ever wanted to put our bitch through.

It's good that she's asking you questions and welcoming yours but if I were you I'd join a pug specific forum - they will have pug breeders there who know the pug breeding 'world' and tend to know who is truly breeding ethically to improve the health of the breed and what exactly to look for.

I would be looking at the following: Is she registered with the Kennel Club Assured Breeder Scheme? What age are dam and sire? How often does she breed?

Look at dam and sire and, if possible, dogs from previous litters - if they have small, pinched nostrils or excessive wrinkles I would avoid. ..but a breed specific forum could tell you more to look out for.

Normally I would say health testing (of dam and sire) and paperwork to prove this is necessary to ensure this a good breeder. A good breeder will health test (different to a basic health check at their regular vet) but this isn't straightforward with pugs - KC don't list any health test requirements for pugs.

Good pug breeders though seem to be taking it upon themselves to at least test for hemivertabrae in pugs so I would use that as an indicator of ethical breeding.

Impossible to say for sure if she's a, I'm sure well-meaning, backyard breeder or a good breeder.

Try KC website - they have a health test finder, puppy finder and lots of helpful advice for puppy buyers.

Champ dogs forum is another good one for advice and info.

Moreover a pug club or breed specific forum.

Ime breed specific websites and forum are fantastic. So much experience and knowledge and so passionate about breeding to improve health and quality.

Good luck. A really lovely breed but puppy buying is a minefield!! So lovely that you are asking questions and really thinking about this. All the best. Sorry couldn't be of more help.

Not sure if any use to you....

http://www.dogbreedhealth.com/pug/

http:// http://pugdogclub.org.uk/

http://www.champdogs.co.uk/info/puppybuyer

http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/getting-a-dog-or-puppy/ (although be aware KC registration is not indication alone of breed quality and good breeding but if not KC registered alarm bells would ring, iywim.)

Good luck.

A genuine, responsible breeder would have had regular anti natal checks, and at least one scan which would have picked this up. I'm no expert, but when I got my cockapoo just a year ago, the breeder gave me copies of the anti natal records, and scan pictures, together with the certificates to prove the testing for genetic conditions.

She gave the vet authority to confirm that the documents were genuine, and I contacted them to check.

I was cautious because I knew someone who bought a dog from a so called breeder, they looked legit, lived in a nice house, but the puppy became ill within a week and died, the vet said it was a virus which shouldn't happen in the right conditions, turned out the so called breeder was a front for a puppy farm.

I would never have been so careful if I hadn't heard the tragic story.

OP there is some controversy about the health problems of pedigree pugs. Are you sure you want to support the trade? At least be careful about what breeding traits you want.
http://rspca.org.au/campaigns/pedigree-dogs/the-pug
http://pedigreedogsexposed.blogspot....s-face-it.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...e-breathe.html

Yes it can happen with a bona fide breeder! Their not miracle workers, their breeders, and whilst the good ones do everything possible to ensure a healthy pregnancy and healthy puppies, there are no guarantees. Nothing made of flesh and blood can be guaranteed in any way shape or form. A bitch's gestation generally lasts 63 days although puppies on day 60 or 66 are not unusual, so if she was scanned and confirmed pregnant at the end of November, at around 25 days, which is when a scan can pick up amount and possible problems, then around Christmas as a due date sounds right.

Scans aren't 100% accurate, and can count more or less puppies, especially if the pups are being carried high up, or hiding. On the other hand, a bitch can re-absorb puppies in certain conditions ( complications, pups that aren't 'right'etc) , so there could have been four when she was scanned, but only the one by the due date due to her loosing and re absorbing the others. C sections on pugs is quite common too.

Going by what you have put, the breeder sounds genuine, doing everything properly, and seems to have been simply unlucky, which can happen to the very best.