[James30]

In this day and age with everyone on social media and streaming music and videos on mobiles, why do mobile companies think that 1GB or even 3GB would last a month?

Mobile companies seem to be leaving internet use to companies who offer Wi-Fi, that poses a security risk if people rely on those hotspots for banking etc.

[clewsy]

It's because its meant to be where the money is made with declining profits on calls and texts. Also all these EU calling rules etc hindering profits.

[sammy_boy]

I suspect the networks don't have the capacity to support thousands, or millions of people streaming HD video over 3 or 4G. I know the networks are expanding their 4G coverage currently - but are they also expanding their data handling capability?

[Gigabit]

I think EE could offer higher (not unlimited) usage allowances if it wanted to.

I reckon they could offer a 200GB plan with no noticeable hit to the network.

[Thine Wonk]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gigabit

I think EE could offer higher (not unlimited) usage allowances if it wanted to.

I reckon they could offer a 200GB plan with no noticeable hit to the network.

It would bring their speeds down considerably if usage increased. The way to think about it is if every user used double the amount of data, the speeds could half.

So if you get 30Mb/s now, then you could get 15Mb/s.

The allowance you've got doesn't equal usage, but if people are restricting their usage because they have an allowance and they know they can use double, then that could change the way users use data. It could also encourage more heavy users to join the network.

[Gigabit]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thine Wonk

It would bring their speeds down considerably if usage increased. The way to think about it is if every user used double the amount of data, the speeds could half.

I don't understand this statement buddy.

[mupet0000]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gigabit

I don't understand this statement buddy.

If a user who normally used 1GB started using 2GB, but that user was a million users, overall network speeds would decline.

[Gigabit]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mupet0000

If a user who normally used 1GB started using 2GB, but that user was a million users, overall network speeds would decline.

Why is that?

By that logic (perhaps I misunderstand), 4G makes the network slower as it encourages people to use more data....

[Thine Wonk]

Quote:

Originally Posted by James30

In this day and age with everyone on social media and streaming music and videos on mobiles, why do mobile companies think that 1GB or even 3GB would last a month?

Mobile companies seem to be leaving internet use to companies who offer Wi-Fi, that poses a security risk if people rely on those hotspots for banking etc.

Some networks do offer bigger allowances, but the answer as to why some don't is capacity.

Mobile networks don't have a cable like your fixed broadband, so what they have to transmit data is a block of frequency spectrum. Physics dictates how much data each cell site can transmit across the air. Planning authorities and cost of building new towers and cabinets and also the ongoing rent and maintenance of equipment dictates how many cell sites are practical or needed.

Realistically a cell site will cover typically 1/2 mile radius, sometimes a lot more, sometimes less, each site will typically have hundreds of users. The fibre backhaul into the site is not so much of an issue, it's mainly down to how much data can be transmitted across the air.

The more active data downloaders at any one time impacts the performance of the network as everybody on the site shares the resources. 10 downloaders at 30Mb/s = 300Mb/s. If the cell site could cope with 300Mb/s of data through the air and 20 downloaders come along then the site can only deliver 15Mb/s per user. If 50 some along and download then each user would get 6Mb/s and if 100, then 3Mb/s. This is an oversimplified example as most users won't be maxing out the connection (some will) but many phones will be all using data (hundreds per site) and it all adds up.

The reason why they give users a fixed allowance is to make people moderate their usage so that everyone can get good performance from the network. Where networks do offer unlimited data like Three, you're more likely to get more usage and therefore slower speeds.

The spectrum is finite as it is issued out by Ofcom for huge costs, so it's not like you can just buy more, and physics as mentioned dictates the amount of data that can be transmitted through the air for a given radio wave based technology.

[Mark Smith]

Radio waves cannot carry unlimited amounts of data. There comes a point when the spectrum is "full" and any new users will simply slow down everyone else. A bit like a congested motorway.

So networks manage this by limiting data, the more you want the more you pay. Otherwise everyone would be using 4G at below 3G speeds.

[gds1972]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gigabit

I don't understand this statement buddy.

I have probably got the wrong end of the stick but this article about home broadband will probably also hold true for mobile networks.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contention_ratio

[Thine Wonk]

Except with broadband cables it's much easier to work around than it is to defy the laws of physics through radio waves / fresh air.

[DevonBloke]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gigabit

Why is that?

By that logic (perhaps I misunderstand), 4G makes the network slower as it encourages people to use more data....

Take a single cell (one sector of a three sector mast, 120 degrees), add 20Mhz 1800 and 20Mhz 2600 to it. That's 300Mbps roughly total throughput shared between all devices.
Add a neighboring cell overlapping and you have 600Mbps (for everyone in the overlapping part).
This is enough just about for 300 devices to do SD iPlayer simultaneously.
Increase to HD and you are looking at 150 devices.
Increase to 4K and you are looking at 30!!
Add all the other people doing bursty stuff like browsing, Facebook and email, then some downloading an app and a few Youtubers..... you have a problem!
It's restricted to stop us using it like home broadband otherwise it wouldn't work at all.

[planetf1]

Three has stood out by offering typically large allowances/unlimited for quite a few years now... They've been pushing up prices lately but IMO still offer great value.

[david16]

Using just over 2GB of mobile data each month is not consuming an excessive amount of data.

O2 in their adverts go on about a 1GB per month data allowance as being loads of data, and Talk Mobile say in their adverts as though a 2GB of data is a big amount of data when in reality neither allowance is anywhere near big enough for most.

Plenty? Pitiful more like.

In the future with three’s PAYG if they ever ditch the AYCE data from PAYG (but hopefully they won’t), by right the All In One 10 should be the pack with the 1GB data offering, not the All In One 20 pack. Three ought to be offering 1GB instead of an appalling 500MB in the All In One 10 pack as it is.

[DevonBloke]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thine Wonk

Except with broadband cables it's much easier to work around than it is to defy the laws of physics through radio waves / fresh air.

It's possible Olaf told BT that one condition would be that he was planning to defy the laws of physics.
BT clearly weren't going to stomach that!!!
hahahahahaha

[cooler]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sammy_boy

I suspect the networks don't have the capacity to support thousands, or millions of people streaming HD video over 3 or 4G.

They must do because Three offer unlimited data for £20/month.

But most people prefer to watch video on a larger screen than on a phone whenever possible, so that factor reduces the data usage anyway.

[DevonBloke]

Quote:

Originally Posted by david16

Using just over 2GB of mobile data each month is not consuming an excessive amount of data.

O2 in their adverts go on about a 1GB per month data allowance as being loads of data, and Talk Mobile say in their adverts as though a 2GB of data is a big amount of data when in reality neither allowance is anywhere near big enough for most.

Plenty? Pitiful more like.

See my above post. They just don't have the capacity.
4G is really fast when only a few are using it.
1 cell = 1 sector of a three sector mast.
A 5Mhz cell can handle 200 active devices but has to share about 37Mbps between them.
10Mhz (VO2 800) spectrum = 400 active devices sharing 75Mbps.
Three's original 15Mhz 1800 spectrum = 600 active devices sharing about 112Mbps.
EE's or Vodas 20Mhz of 1800 or 2600 spectrum = 800 active devices sharing 150Mbps.

Bottom line = 100 devices simultaneously streaming / downloading on 1800 or 2600 at 20Mhz bandwidth, each device gets 1.5Mbps.

[DevonBloke]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cooler

They must do because Three offer unlimited data for £20/month.

But most people prefer to watch video on a larger screen than on a phone whenever possible, so that factor reduces the data usage anyway.

It's unlimited on a phone. Not tethering or a router.
See my previous and last posts.
4G doesn't have the capacity.
You are right about watching video on a large screen but still there are more and more of us watching it on mobiles and tablets. My Son was today in the car.
In reality there would have had to have been another 50-100 people doing the same in Totnes at the time for it to have broken down and started buffering.
Could be possible if the allowances were such that people were using mobile as a fixed (home) broadband replacement. They aren't so all was well!!

[david16]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DevonBloke

It's unlimited on a phone. Not tethering or a router.
See my previous and last posts.
4G doesn't have the capacity.
You are right about watching video on a large screen but still there are more and more of us watching it on mobiles and tablets. My Son was today in the car.
In reality there would have had to have been another 50-100 people doing the same in Totnes at the time for it to have broken down and started buffering.
Could be possible if the allowances were such that people were using mobile as a fixed (home) broadband replacement. They aren't so all was well!!

The fixed line isp’s could easily provide their home broadband customers with a free mobile broadband sim and mifi/dongle with 2GB or 3GB free each month on the sim for outdoor use and if their home wifi goes on the blink, or if they have to go away somewhere where there’s no access to fixed line wifi.

PAYG Mobile broadband for people that can’t take out a contract to the major fixed line telecoms who either need to be charge considerably less for the allowances they currently offer, or offer a much higher data allowance at current prices for the max amount of data they offer at present. At the moment these people are forced to use a standard PAYG mobile phone simcard for their internet and either have to use three’s All In One 20, or use these special EE 200GB PAYG sims if they need to use their sims like a home broadband substitute. Why should those who can’t take out a contract with the fixed liners be left out in the cold when it comes to home broadband eh?

[alan1302]

Quote:

Originally Posted by James30

In this day and age with everyone on social media and streaming music and videos on mobiles, why do mobile companies think that 1GB or even 3GB would last a month?

It lasts me!

[Aye Up]

Quote:

Originally Posted by James30

Mobile companies seem to be leaving internet use to companies who offer Wi-Fi, that poses a security risk if people rely on those hotspots for banking etc.

Actually using mobile banking is completed through SSL or similar, the wifi hotspot provider doesn't see information when its ecrypted. If that were the case then mobile banking using mobile internet would be even more risky seeing as networks use Carrier Grade NAT.

[Yossi]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aye Up

Actually using mobile banking is completed through SSL or similar, the wifi hotspot provider doesn't see information when its ecrypted. If that were the case then mobile banking using mobile internet would be even more risky seeing as networks use Carrier Grade NAT.

what about MITM (man in the middle) type of attacks?
http://www.infosecurity-magazine.com...-mitm-attacks/

[cooler]

Quote:

Originally Posted by david16

The fixed line isp’s could easily provide their home broadband customers with a free mobile broadband sim and mifi/dongle with 2GB or 3GB free each month on the sim for outdoor use and if their home wifi goes on the blink, or if they have to go away somewhere where there’s no access to fixed line wifi.

They could, but why should they? People paying for fixed line broadband is for that itself. If someone buys a 2GB mobile broadband plan it costs about £8/month. Why should they get it for free.

BT broadband customers have BT fon anyway. So if their home wifi goes on the blink they can connect to a BT fon hotspot. Virgin Media have a similar service also using SuperHub routers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by david16

Why should those who can’t take out a contract with the fixed liners be left out in the cold when it comes to home broadband eh?

If people can't take out a contract with the fixed liners, they could take out a contact with mobile broadband, which is cheaper than PAYG mobile broadband.

[Thine Wonk]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cooler

They must do because Three offer unlimited data for £20/month.

But most people prefer to watch video on a larger screen than on a phone whenever possible, so that factor reduces the data usage anyway.

Bear in mind that different companies USP's are different, Three can get away with it because they need that many cell sites for coverage with 2100Mhz and shareMBNL sites, but they are in a lucky position of having 9.2M users, rather than the other networks who have a lot more customers.

If they had 2 or 3 times as many customers all using that amount, the network would be 2 or 3 times slower. They are in kind of a unique situation that they may as well offer much more data and that will help them grow, but there's a limit to that, when a small amount 1% were going mad doing 1000GB+ they had to pull the plug on those users.

If and when the sale of O2 UK goes through and in a couple of years when they begin standardising plans, unlimited will likely cop it, or have conditions like trafficsense after 20GB. We'll see, maybe the fact O2 users use so little data (least heavy data use network in the UK) maybe it will buy them more time and it won't become an issue.