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F1 Coverage - The Verdict: 2016 Season
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gomezz
23-06-2016
Originally Posted by _SpeedRacer_:
“There's an interesting premium article on Autosport suggesting that Bernie mostly definitely sees Le Mans as a rival to F1”

The simple answer to that is to change the rules so that F1 goes back to being a flat out racing series and not one that relies so much on fuel and tyre conservation.
FOM Fan
23-06-2016
Originally Posted by gomezz:
“The simple answer to that is to change the rules so that F1 goes back to being a flat out racing series and not one that relies so much on fuel and tyre conservation.”

I agree. We need tyres that can last between a third & a half of a race (to allow for 2 or 3 stop strategies), not ones that go off after 10 laps... We need to change it so that fuel saving is only a problem in the final few laps of the race. the FIA should enforce a minimum fuel limit for all cars too, to reduce under-fuelling.
callmediva
23-06-2016
Originally Posted by FOM Fan:
“I agree. We need tyres that can last between a third & a half of a race (to allow for 2 or 3 stop strategies), not ones that go off after 10 laps... We need to change it so that fuel saving is only a problem in the final few laps of the race. the FIA should enforce a minimum fuel limit for all cars too, to reduce under-fuelling.”

That's simple. every car starts with 100 litres
FOM Fan
23-06-2016
Originally Posted by callmediva:
“That's simple. every car starts with 100 litres”

Problem solved. Enforce a standard fuel flow rate for all engines (to reduce them guzzling too much fuel) and you're done.

This wont happen because too many people have too many vested interests. ****ing pisses me off so much. Sadly it's the same with any sport . I can't take it any more.
DEmberton
23-06-2016
Originally Posted by FOM Fan:
“I agree. We need tyres that can last between a third & a half of a race (to allow for 2 or 3 stop strategies), not ones that go off after 10 laps... We need to change it so that fuel saving is only a problem in the final few laps of the race. the FIA should enforce a minimum fuel limit for all cars too, to reduce under-fuelling.”

Do they go off after 10 laps? How long did Raikonnen do on one set of tyres in Baku? And I think somebody did most the race on one set of softs - was that Harianto?

It's meant to be green: using as little fuel as possible. It's a bit ridiculous if they're required to use more than they need to, or aren't allowed to reduce the fuel flow because they've done a better job on the energy recovery.
FOM Fan
23-06-2016
Originally Posted by DEmberton:
“Do they go off after 10 laps? How long did Raikonnen do on one set of tyres in Baku? And I think somebody did most the race on one set of softs - was that Harianto?

It's meant to be green: using as little fuel as possible. It's a bit ridiculous if they're required to use more than they need to, or aren't allowed to reduce the fuel flow because they've done a better job on the energy recovery.”

F1 should use the minimum amount of fuel needed to run at full power for 90% of the race IMO. Hey, why not start the cars with 10 Litres of fuel and let them crawl around at 2mph That's much more fuel efficient

I am very supportive of F1's green agenda, and I do not want to see the V8's make a return. However this shouldn't come at the expense of full-throttle racing.

At the moment, they're using far less than they're capable of, to the detriment of the racing, because cars are fuel-saving too much.

And the tyres seem to be only good for 1 or 2 quali runs from what i've seen.
FOM Fan
23-06-2016
Re the coverage, it doesn't help that if you're watching online (via now TV or Channel 4's god-awful excuse of a live player), the frame-rate is only 25, whereas (given that F1 is shot for broadcast as interlaced - as is all TV) it's being shot at effectively 50fps. It annoys me that the only broadcaster that's had 50fps playback with their streaming players are the BBC - the rest just turn the 50i footage into 25p, cos it's easier on (their) resources. I lobbied FOM last year to upload their website videos as 50p (as they're also shot at 25i), but they decided against it because too many people were watching on less powerful devices which can't handle 50fps. But it's a shame because it makes the movement much less smooth & fluid.
mightymillie
23-06-2016
Originally Posted by FOM Fan:
“Re the coverage, it doesn't help that if you're watching online (via now TV or Channel 4's god-awful excuse of a live player), the frame-rate is only 25, whereas (given that F1 is shot for broadcast as interlaced - as is all TV) it's being shot at effectively 50fps. ”

It's not being shot at "effectively 50fps". It's being shot at 25 frames per second. Each pixel only gets updated once every 1/25th of a second.

Quote:
“It annoys me that the only broadcaster that's had 50fps playback with their streaming players are the BBC - the rest just turn the 50i footage into 25p, cos it's easier on (their) resources. I lobbied FOM last year to upload their website videos as 50p (as they're also shot at 25i), but they decided against it because too many people were watching on less powerful devices which can't handle 50fps. But it's a shame because it makes the movement much less smooth & fluid.”

Changing interlaced footage into progressive footage is going to make it judder regardless of whether you make it 25p or 50p.
popeye13
23-06-2016
Originally Posted by mightymillie:
“It's not being shot at "effectively 50fps". It's being shot at 25 frames per second. Each pixel only gets updated once every 1/25th of a second.



Changing interlaced footage into progressive footage is going to make it judder regardless of whether you make it 25p or 50p.”

It is shot at 1080i50 meaning that can be easily be converted to 1080p50 so converting interlaced to progressive does not make a judder.
Your TV will convert interlaced to progressive before it displays it!
FOM Fan
24-06-2016
Originally Posted by mightymillie:
“It's not being shot at "effectively 50fps". It's being shot at 25 frames per second. Each pixel only gets updated once every 1/25th of a second.



Changing interlaced footage into progressive footage is going to make it judder regardless of whether you make it 25p or 50p.”

In that quote when I said "effectively 50fps" I was reffering to a frame being a progressively encoded image of video. A 25i stream is the equivalent of a 50p stream, in that they both contain 50 images to be displayed for each second.

I wasn't talking about eliminating judder, I was referring to keeping each of the original 50 fields contained within the 25i source. If the footage is shot in 25i - that will give you 2 fields per frame = i.e. 50 images. If you straight convert that down to 25p, you're only displaying 1 image per frame, therefore 25 images, so you lose half the frames.

However if you take each interlaced field and display that as 50p, you're displaying each of the original 50 images, therefore you're not losing any motion from how it was originally shot.
FOM Fan
24-06-2016
Originally Posted by popeye13:
“It is shot at 1080i50 meaning that can be easily be converted to 1080p50 so converting interlaced to progressive does not make a judder.
Your TV will convert interlaced to progressive before it displays it!”

That's correct - If you have a modern set top box and you tell it to output TV footage progressively, it will take that interlaced source and output it to 1080p50 - so you don't lose any motion. (Or if you output it interlaced, your TV itself will perform the de-interlacing rather than the set top box).

However i'm talking about web streams from say Now TV. They've already taken that 25i source and simply converted it down to 25p, losing half the fields already. So therefore, converting that 25p stream to 50p will make zero difference. Because you'd just be doubling the existing frames.
DEmberton
24-06-2016
Originally Posted by FOM Fan:
“That's correct - If you have a modern set top box and you tell it to output TV footage progressively, it will take that interlaced source and output it to 1080p50 - so you don't lose any motion. (Or if you output it interlaced, your TV itself will perform the de-interlacing rather than the set top box).

However i'm talking about web streams from say Now TV. They've already taken that 25i source and simply converted it down to 25p, losing half the fields already. So therefore, converting that 25p stream to 50p will make zero difference. Because you'd just be doubling the existing frames.”

This is my problem with NowTV. It's all juddery. My "less powerful" device is an LG TV that handles 4K Netflix absolutely fine.

TVs smooth it out anyway, which means most are not going to notice. Unfortunately LG in their infinite wisdom have disabled TruMotion in 720p.

The normal broadcast is 1080i50*; if Sky would give us that on NowTV then it'd be fine, but they might have to spend some money increasing the bandwidth. Clearly they have a vested interest in not making NowTV too good...

*i50 is in 50 fields. Nobody seems to be able to make up their minds about whether it's i50 or i25. But there are 50 time points in a second.
FOM Fan
24-06-2016
Originally Posted by DEmberton:
“This is my problem with NowTV. It's all juddery. My "less powerful" device is an LG TV that handles 4K Netflix absolutely fine.

TVs smooth it out anyway, which means most are not going to notice. Unfortunately LG in their infinite wisdom have disabled TruMotion in 720p.

The normal broadcast is 1080i50*; if Sky would give us that on NowTV then it'd be fine, but they might have to spend some money increasing the bandwidth. Clearly they have a vested interest in not making NowTV too good...

*i50 is in 50 fields. Nobody seems to be able to make up their minds about whether it's i50 or i25. But there are 50 time points in a second.”

It's Juddery because the Now TV stream is removing half the (interlaced) frames!

As far as your TV is concerned, it's outputting it as 25p because NowTV is saying "OK TV i'm giving you a 25p stream".

And it depends on the TV and your set top box. They wouldn't smooth it out (unless you as the user have specifically told it to - I don't know what options your TV has or where you're getting your stream from), beacuse as far as they're concerned, they're getting a 25p stream and they should play it as such.

You can refer to interlaced content with the number of fields per second (50) or the number of frames per second (25). Obviously as interlaced is 2 fields per frame, i25 infers i50.

The reason why the stream is in progressive and never interlaced, is because unless you have a CRT Television (which naturally de-interlaces all content correctly) or monitor, whatever is outputting that footage to your screen, (be that web browser, Set top box, whatever) has to de-interlace that footage itself, and to do that acceptably, that's a difficult task to do, especially with users who's PCs will probably be crap.

That's why the stream is given to users in progressive format. Plus your OS would always (nowadays and even in the 90s when we had CRT monitors) be outputting a progressive image anyway in general. So the only way to restore motion correctly is for Sky (or whoever serves NowTV to create a 50p stream from that i25 source - which for them takes time & resources - and then give us that 50p stream - and because its progressive, we don't need to do any de-interlacing our end.
ToneXIR
24-06-2016
MLB.tv just upped to 60fps a few weeks ago and have to say the quality on both apple TV and ipad of the games are just excellent.
FOM Fan
24-06-2016
Originally Posted by ToneXIR:
“MLB.tv just upped to 60fps a few weeks ago and have to say the quality on both apple TV and ipad of the games are just excellent.”

See with things like the ipad etc. then it would be a lot easier to support, because the hardware capability is higher, but with stuff like android & regular computers, most people are probably using out of date tech that might not keep up as easily with high framerate footage.
lincsat
24-06-2016
Originally Posted by ToneXIR:
“MLB.tv just upped to 60fps a few weeks ago and have to say the quality on both apple TV and ipad of the games are just excellent.”

When they have sufficient bandwidth available that is. Get quite a bit of buffering when games start until they allocate more bandwidth. It's great when it works.
DEmberton
24-06-2016
Originally Posted by FOM Fan:
“It's Juddery because the Now TV stream is removing half the (interlaced) frames!

As far as your TV is concerned, it's outputting it as 25p because NowTV is saying "OK TV i'm giving you a 25p stream".”

Thanks. I'm having trouble tying my shoelaces. Perhaps you can explain that.too

Quote:
“The reason why the stream is in progressive and never interlaced, is because unless you have a CRT Television (which naturally de-interlaces all content correctly) or monitor, whatever is outputting that footage to your screen, (be that web browser, Set top box, whatever) has to de-interlace that footage itself, and to do that acceptably, that's a difficult task to do, especially with users who's PCs will probably be crap.”

PCs and tablets yes. I have the TV, a Chromecast and a YouView box and they all handle 1080i absolutely fine. Deinterlacing only becomes difficult if you need to resize the image to an arbitary size as you would on a PC.

It would be simple to identify the client and send a different stream to a TV or PC. This may be happening anyway as the PC version of NowTV uses Silverlight for DRM. The reason Sky doesn't give us 1080i50 for F1 on NowTV is they're being cheap and skimping on the bandwidth: about 3.8Mb; annoying when I have no trouble with Netflix 4K at 13Mb.
FOM Fan
24-06-2016
Originally Posted by DEmberton:
“PCs and tablets yes. I have the TV, a Chromecast and a YouView box and they all handle 1080i absolutely fine. Deinterlacing only becomes difficult if you need to resize the image to an arbitary size as you would on a PC.”

Correct there. After all, the format the BT use for their IPTV channels is native 1080i50. No reason why Now TV couldn't deliver the same quality of stream - all you need is adaptive bitrate streaming to handle people who's PCs or Internet isn't up to scratch. I suspect Sky doesn't do that however on Now TV, in order to you to make you pay for the "proper" subscription.
popeye13
24-06-2016
50i is 25FPS
50p is 50 frames per second.

And someone needs to tell FOMFan that there is no such thing as 25i and that NowTV is run at 30FPS
FOM Fan
25-06-2016
Originally Posted by popeye13:
“50i is 25FPS
50p is 50 frames per second.

And someone needs to tell FOMFan that there is no such thing as 25i and that NowTV is run at 30FPS”

Now TV is most certainly not run at 30fps. I've viewed the raw video that comes through now TV's silverlight player in my browser and it's 25...
popeye13
25-06-2016
I thought the purpose of adding someone to your ignore list was they couldn't see your posts?!
Anyway, NowTV same as SkyGo is sent out at 30fps!
If you have your monitor set at 50p or 50i then silverlight will drop 5 frames per second but they are codes to 30fps!
Im not debating this with you because this has exactly zero to do with F1, which is what this thread is about and yet again, you are taking it off topic!!!
DanielF
25-06-2016
Originally Posted by popeye13:
“I thought the purpose of adding someone to your ignore list was they couldn't see your posts?!”

No, all it does is hide theirs. You can still see theirs too, if you choose to, by clicking "view post".
Hacker Harrier
25-06-2016
Saw Martin Brundle take the '09 BGP001 up the hill on the live stream this morning.

Goodwood Festival of Speed live stream & site
FOM Fan
25-06-2016
Originally Posted by Hacker Harrier:
“Saw Martin Brundle take the '09 BGP001 up the hill on the live stream this morning.

Goodwood Festival of Speed live stream & site”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUqUh2YLYoE
This is a YouTube link of the same stream, which may be useful to people on mobiles - not sure if the quality is any better or worse though.
simongvs70
26-06-2016
Lee McKenzie has sent her first tweet from SW19 this year, so I expect Karun will do the Drivers Pen interviews at the Red Bull Ring next weekend for C4.
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