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F1 Coverage - The Verdict: 2016 Season
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stefmeister
23-09-2016
Originally Posted by brundlebud:
“With re-fuelling they have to go as quickly as they can in order to open up gaps to make the fuel stop bring them out in the right place. They can't afford to coast because that will mean they aren't going quickly enough to make their spot when they come out. PLUS they'll be fuelled for X laps at the start and unlikely to be able to save enough to extend that, so therefore no point in fuel saving.”

It is actually very possible & very beneficial to extend fuel stints so even if you have refueling you still see a fair bit of fuel saving.

If you fuel for 20 laps you can quite easily extend the fuel stint by a couple laps by saving fuel & that will have strategic benefits later on as it allows you to take on less fuel during the stops which obviously results in faster stops.

As I said a few days back, Indycar has refueling but you still see a lot of fuel saving & you actually often see them using lift & coast more often than you see in F1 because of the benefits it can give you.


In terms of refueling in F1, Personally never liked it & I always felt it did far more harm to the racing than just about anything else. It shifted the focus towards strategy & away from the actual racing so we always ended up with most of the passing & bits of interest occurring in the pits rather than on the track which was something I never liked.

The other issue is that fuel strategy is far more reliant on the strategy guys & computer models in the pits rather than on the drivers. Drivers can have a say in changing tyre strategy, You can switch compounds or drive differently to manage the tyres to get more life out of them.
With refueling drivers are largely stuck doing whatever strategy the guys in the pits tell them is best with no real say in it themselves. If there fueled for 20 laps then you pit within that window (Maybe getting 2-4 laps if you saved enough fuel), While with tyres if you plan to go 20 laps but have kept the tyres in good condition you can keep going for as long as your able to keep your tyres at a good level of performance.
stefmeister
23-09-2016
BTW...........
http://www.pitpass.com/57331/Liberty...th-area-for-F1

Quote:
“I think there's an opportunity to grow that broadcast stream. Much of it comes from moving potentially from free-to-air to competitive pay services, for example what happened in the UK, when Sky recently bought the rights."

"We're sitting on twenty-one venues, I think there's an opportunity to potentially grow that over time, particularly while we've maximised some of those venue opportunities with relatively high venue fees. I think there's an opportunity to grow in the number of venues and venues that are potentially more attractive to longer term broadcast revenues and sponsorship revenues.

"The obvious optionality case is to some degree Asia in the short term, potentially Latin America, and longer term North America, and particularly the US, where we really are well under-viewed, under-monetised, under-everything.

"Something that intersects all of these is less than one percent of the revenues are from digital, they really have no organised digital effort. I think there are lot of things that can be done around gaming, VR and AR.

"There's an enormous amount of video feed and data that we have about the races that we are already capturing that we are not in any way processing incrementally for the dedicated fan, or opportunities around things like gambling.

"Outside the United States there is a huge gambling opportunity in the sport, none of which we capitalise on. There are a bunch of ways in which digital can play through this, from a service to augmenting other things to providing data that are interesting that we are not capitalising on, that I think will be a part of the future growth.”

FOM Fan
23-09-2016
Originally Posted by stefmeister:
“BTW...........
http://www.pitpass.com/57331/Liberty...th-area-for-F1”

Chase Carey is a director of Sky... Quelle surprise...
solarflare
23-09-2016
Originally Posted by Jonpollak:
“Can we go back to talking about Japan.....Or meteorites or shopping trolleys?

Jp”

Oh nooooo....the thread always feels most on-track when it's discussing the merits of 50p and 50i, and 42.7453q which is only possible when the hermitian conjugate interlaces the zlargon tensor...
FOM Fan
23-09-2016
Originally Posted by solarflare:
“Oh nooooo....the thread always feels most on-track when it's discussing the merits of 50p and 50i, and 42.7453q which is only possible when the hermitian conjugate interlaces the zlargon tensor...”

Trust me, you don't know the half of it lol. This is nothing to the agony i've had while realsing another quirk about DVDs at least... (on another forum) Turns out most modern players will play any (providing the video on the DVD is correctly conforming to the spec) DVD slightly horizontally squashed (by 2.5%). So now i have that nagging feeling that im watching a distorted video.... Sigh. FML lol.
mjr
23-09-2016
Originally Posted by Jonpollak:
“Can we go back to talking about Japan.....Or meteorites or shopping trolleys?

Jp”

Yeah, I should know better...

https://xkcd.com/386/
lordgoata
23-09-2016
Originally Posted by mjr:
“Yeah, I should know better...

https://xkcd.com/386/”

LOL
popeye13
24-09-2016
Originally Posted by FOM Fan:
“So if I were to put say the 2015 season review blu-ray in my computer, and analyse the video file with FFMPEG (which is a command line tool that tells you information about the raw video file- independent of regions or screen refresh rates) - what do you think it will say the field-rate is, 50i or 60i?”

If your software reads it correctly and doesn't include repeat flags to change the end result fields to yield 60i

Originally Posted by FOM Fan:
“Also when you say that 25i and 30i are not tech standards, are you simply referring to the name? Well it's perfectly valid as long as you clarify what the number represents - frames or fields.

If it's a progressive frame - that's a single field per frame, otherwise if it's an interlaced frame, that's 2 fields per frame.

25i = 25 interlaced FRAMES per second (an interlaced frame containes 2 fields)
50i = 50 FIELDS per second.
it's the same thing...”

You have no concept of how things work do you...
Fields and frames are two entirely different things!!
A progressive frame is a single frame, no a field!! Not the same thing at all as one has the entire detail of the frame and the other is missing half of it and relying on bobbing that your TV or STB does to complete the frame!

25i would be 12.5fps
50i is 25fps


Originally Posted by FOM Fan:
“Also i've had it personally confirmed by FOM themselves to me that they shoot interlaced - at 25 frames per second (either 25i or 50i depending on how you express it).”

Bulls***!! You haven't!
Lets not forget to mention that when they upgraded their entire operations systems a number of years ago which also introduced 5.1 sound mixing, 50i became 50p, so you might want to check your purported source!!

If FOM shot at 25FPS, that would be 25p, and if you want to see what that looks like, put any SkyGo or NowTV Sky Sports live stream on and watch it, its worse than that!
F1 looks nothing like it, because it isn't 25p!!!!!
stevvy1986
24-09-2016
Must admit I'm more than a bit sceptical that FOM have confirmed something personally to you. More likely is someone in motorsport confirming something personally to DMN I'd say (be it this or anything else).
FOM Fan
24-09-2016
Originally Posted by popeye13:
“If your software reads it correctly and doesn't include repeat flags to change the end result fields to yield 60i

You have no concept of how things work do you...
Fields and frames are two entirely different things!!
A progressive frame is a single frame, no a field!! Not the same thing at all as one has the entire detail of the frame and the other is missing half of it and relying on bobbing that your TV or STB does to complete the frame!

25i would be 12.5fps
50i is 25fps

Bulls***!! You haven't!
Lets not forget to mention that when they upgraded their entire operations systems a number of years ago which also introduced 5.1 sound mixing, 50i became 50p, so you might want to check your purported source!!

If FOM shot at 25FPS, that would be 25p, and if you want to see what that looks like, put any SkyGo or NowTV Sky Sports live stream on and watch it, its worse than that!
F1 looks nothing like it, because it isn't 25p!!!!!”

For the avoidance of doubt then, I will use your terminology. Although I still think it doesn't matter as long as you specifcy what the number is referring to. I mean personally if you said 50i you could be implying that it's equivilant to 100p. Because every single 'i' frame consists of 2 images.

25p - 25 PROGRESSIVE frames per second - 25 images per second
25i - 25 INTERLACED fields per second - 50 images per second.
50p 50 PROGRESSIVE frames per second - 50 images per second.
50i 50 INTERLACED fields per second - 100 images per second.

Remember an interlaced field (when properly de-interlaced) is essentially 2 images displayed per second.


Can you point me to your source where the Blu-ray is encoded onto disc at 50i please (with repeat flags)? Because every single peice of software I have tells me that since Duke took over in 2014 - it's actually on disc at 60i without repeat flags. I have both a Region A and Region B blu-ray player, and both are set to output to my monitor at the native rate of whatever the content is on disc. So if what you were saying is true - my Region B player would output a 50i signal, and my region A one would output a 60i signal. But they don't. And before you say "Well your Region B player must be displaying things wrong then - every other blu-ray" I have that is at 50i is displayd on my screen at that rate.

So i'd like to know how you know that the FOM season reviews are in native 50i, but with optional repeat/pulldown flags in the video stream. e.g. can you analyse the video stream & produce logs showing that this is the case? I certainly can for my point of view.

Also can you point me to your source that says FOM's cameras are capturing the footage at 50p? Because i've had it told to me by the F1 App Twitter account via DM that they shoot interlaced. Of course given that both a 50i and 50p signal ultimately consist of 50 images per second - one supposes that internally the cameras may capture at 50p and then the signal coming out the cable at the back to the production gallery is already interlaced - but I don't know in that for sure.
Originally Posted by stevvy1986:
“Must admit I'm more than a bit sceptical that FOM have confirmed something personally to you. More likely is someone in motorsport confirming something personally to DMN I'd say (be it this or anything else).”

All I asked was "What rate and scan mode" do they shoot at, and they replied "25i". This was last year. I've just asked a few other people now by the way.
mjr
24-09-2016
FOM Fan, sorry but your use of terminology and mapping to the standards is way off. Maybe start a separate thread in the Broadcasting forum or possibly one of the Technical sub-forums of the Satellite/Freeview forums here. They can probably point you in the right direction for the information or have a discussion on it there, as we're way off-topic for this thread.
FOM Fan
24-09-2016
Originally Posted by mjr:
“FOM Fan, sorry but your use of terminology and mapping to the standards is way off. Maybe start a separate thread in the Broadcasting forum or possibly one of the Technical sub-forums of the Satellite/Freeview forums here. They can probably point you in the right direction for the information or have a discussion on it there, as we're way off-topic for this thread.”

From Wikipedia:
Quote:
“Format identifiers like 576i 50 and 720p 50 specify the frame rate for progressive scan formats, but for interlaced formats they typically specify the field rate (which is twice the frame rate). This can lead to confusion, because industry-standard SMPTE timecode formats always deal with frame rate, not field rate. To avoid confusion, SMPTE and EBU always use frame rate to specify interlaced formats, e.g., 480i 60 is 480i/30, 576i 50 is 576i/25, and 1080i 50 is 1080i/25. This convention assumes that one complete frame in an interlaced signal consists of two fields in sequence.”

But seriously, it's semantics. A second of interlaced video will consist of 50 fields spread over 25 frames, is it not? In which case saying that that second is at 25i, that is correct. It is (50 because 2x25 is 50) interlaced fields spread over 25 frames...

Don't avoid the question - answer it!

And the topic of this thread is how Formula One is broadcast, is it not? I fail to see how a debate around what frame&scan rate Formula One is captured for broadcast at is off topic.
scardis
24-09-2016
Next week is a live week for Channel 4 and the Malaysian Grand Prix.
As I understand it, because it's an early morning race they'll rerun it in the afternoon.
I wonder what the set up is going to be in relation to adverts. Will the rerun be ad free? I personally can't see that happening.
TheSubaru2012
24-09-2016
The Japanese GP Qualifying... On Sky Sports 1/F1... And Mix!!
Jonpollak
24-09-2016
NBC Sports has averaged 505,000 viewers for IndyCar coverage this season, up 28% from last year. Add to that the increase in international viewers and we see a series on the up !!

It's growth market baby..
Jp
popeye13
24-09-2016
Originally Posted by FOM Fan:
“For the avoidance of doubt then, I will use your terminology. Although I still think it doesn't matter as long as you specifcy what the number is referring to. I mean personally if you said 50i you could be implying that it's equivilant to 100p. Because every single 'i' frame consists of 2 images.

25p - 25 PROGRESSIVE frames per second - 25 images per second
25i - 25 INTERLACED fields per second - 50 images per second.
50p 50 PROGRESSIVE frames per second - 50 images per second.
50i 50 INTERLACED fields per second - 100 images per second.

Remember an interlaced field (when properly de-interlaced) is essentially 2 images displayed per second.


Can you point me to your source where the Blu-ray is encoded onto disc at 50i please (with repeat flags)? Because every single peice of software I have tells me that since Duke took over in 2014 - it's actually on disc at 60i without repeat flags. I have both a Region A and Region B blu-ray player, and both are set to output to my monitor at the native rate of whatever the content is on disc. So if what you were saying is true - my Region B player would output a 50i signal, and my region A one would output a 60i signal. But they don't. And before you say "Well your Region B player must be displaying things wrong then - every other blu-ray" I have that is at 50i is displayd on my screen at that rate.

So i'd like to know how you know that the FOM season reviews are in native 50i, but with optional repeat/pulldown flags in the video stream. e.g. can you analyse the video stream & produce logs showing that this is the case? I certainly can for my point of view.

Also can you point me to your source that says FOM's cameras are capturing the footage at 50p? Because i've had it told to me by the F1 App Twitter account via DM that they shoot interlaced. Of course given that both a 50i and 50p signal ultimately consist of 50 images per second - one supposes that internally the cameras may capture at 50p and then the signal coming out the cable at the back to the production gallery is already interlaced - but I don't know in that for sure.

All I asked was "What rate and scan mode" do they shoot at, and they replied "25i". This was last year. I've just asked a few other people now by the way.”

Wrong!
Im not going to retype everything and you then bloody ignore it, again!
And for the sake of the thread and the other users of this thread, im blocking you, again, because i also enjoy this thread, and you make it impossible and to the point i just wanna un-subscribe from it, like i have 2 years straight!!
Jonpollak
24-09-2016
No no. Don't go.
Jp
mjr
24-09-2016
Originally Posted by Jonpollak:
“NBC Sports has averaged 505,000 viewers for IndyCar coverage this season, up 28% from last year. Add to that the increase in international viewers and we see a series on the up !!

It's growth market baby..
Jp”

That's great news and a very healthy increase!

Special mention for BT Sport moving to ad-free coverage near the start of the season, that really did a lot to hold my interest and it improved the coverage a great deal. Particular thanks therefore to Keith Collantine, Ben Evans & Tom Gaymor but most importantly Indycar UK for pushing for it, and BT Sport producer Nick Kennerley that helped make it happen.

It's just a pity the international feed graphics are a bit lacklustre, but hopefully that might change as the viewing figures grow. They're not terrible, but I don't get anywhere near the insight I get from the F1 graphics for example.
FOM Fan
25-09-2016
Its interesting now that before Liberty took over, we'd blame all the bad changes on F1 as a sport & on Bernie in particular. But now that liberty are the new face of F1, we don't seem to be blaming F1 especially, but the next level up - Liberty & Chase, rather than F1 & Bernie (Although when this deal goes through - Liberty Media will be renamed as the F1 Group, so yeah...)
BenFranklin
25-09-2016
Why are you making stuff up? What's wrong with you? Are you ill?
FOM Fan
25-09-2016
Originally Posted by BenFranklin:
“Why are you making stuff up? What's wrong with you? Are you ill?”

It's called a theory, bud. Doesn't have to be right. I may well be proven wrong. I'm just speculating based on the comments etc i've been reading from fans.
solarflare
25-09-2016
The WTCC TV director is a bit of a tool, sorry to him/her. Race 1, last lap, pretty much last corner lunge for the lead, let's cut to the garage mid-move to see their reaction, Martin Haven doing his nut in cos we can't see what's happening.

We don't get much excitement in WTCC, so let's not **** up the good moments we do get, please?

Fantastic end to the race though as the car that took the lead at the end then had it's suspension break and crabbed its way over the line to hang on to win.
mjr
25-09-2016
Whenever I watched WTCC they always seemed obsessed with cutting to reaction shots at the absolute worst possible time. It's an utterly infuriating way of presenting a race, not that I've watched it for the last couple of years... doesn't sound like it's got any better!
BenFranklin
25-09-2016
Originally Posted by FOM Fan:
“It's called a theory, bud. Doesn't have to be right. I may well be proven wrong. I'm just speculating based on the comments etc i've been reading from fans.”

A theory based on what evidence? What changes have Liberty made and links please to fans who are blaming Liberty rather than F1.
FOM Fan
25-09-2016
Originally Posted by BenFranklin:
“A theory based on what evidence? What changes have Liberty made and links please to fans who are blaming Liberty rather than F1.”

Well it's the changes that Libery are *rumoured* to be making. It's not Bernie or F1 or the strategy group now, it's Liberty. When we blamed those in charge before, we rarely blamed CVC "Oh it's all CVCs" fault, it was "Oh it's all Bernie & the team's fault". I'm just hypothesising based on the media reports being banded about.
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