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Acoustic guitar question re open chord C6


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Old 26-01-2016, 19:18
SepangBlue
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As a bedroom strummer I enjoy going through old tab notation books from time to time, just to amuse myself and prove that I haven't forgotten altogether how to play my guitar!

I'm currently enjoying While My Guitar Gently Weeps (written by George Harrison of The Beatles, from the White Album); the verse chord progression is quite straightforward:

Am > C6 > D > Dm > Am > G > D > E ... and so on, but the problem I'm having is with the C6 chord ...

In my The Beatles Complete, Guitar/Vocal Edition (1983) the C6 chord is shown as an open Am with the pinky on the 3rd fret of the top E string, i.e. a G, which I interpret as a straightforward Am7 chord, which doesn't sound quite right. However, every chord book I've looked C6 up in shows it, among other inversions, as an open Am chord with the pinky on the 3rd fret of the bottom E, i.e. still a G, but much more in keeping with the descending bass run of the song.

Well, that's fine as far as it goes. The problem starts when you notice that the chord illustration books show C6 (as described above, i.e. Am with pinky on low G) with an 'x' on both the open A and open top E strings which, if I'm not mistaken, means that those strings should be silent.

If you're strumming a chord in which there are 'silent' open strings, how the hell's it done?
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Old 26-01-2016, 19:26
babelogue
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As a bedroom strummer I enjoy going through old tab notation books from time to time, just to amuse myself and prove that I haven't forgotten altogether how to play my guitar!

I'm currently enjoying While My Guitar Gently Weeps (written by George Harrison of The Beatles, from the White Album); the verse chord progression is quite straightforward:

Am > C6 > D > Dm > Am > G > D > E ... and so on, but the problem I'm having is with the C6 chord ...

In my The Beatles Complete, Guitar/Vocal Edition (1983) the C6 chord is shown as an open Am with the pinky on the 3rd fret of the top E string, i.e. a G, which I interpret as a straightforward Am7 chord, which doesn't sound quite right. However, every chord book I've looked C6 up in shows it, among other inversions, as an open Am chord with the pinky on the 3rd fret of the bottom E, i.e. still a G, but much more in keeping with the descending bass run of the song.

Well, that's fine as far as it goes. The problem starts when you notice that the chord illustration books show C6 (as described above, i.e. Am with pinky on low G) with an 'x' on both the open A and open top E strings which, if I'm not mistaken, means that those strings should be silent.

If you're strumming a chord in which there are 'silent' open strings, how the hell's it done?
The notes of C6 are C E G A, which is the same as Am7 like you said (A C E G). You could would just play C6 the same as Am7, or do a regular Am with your pinky on the G of the top E.
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Old 26-01-2016, 19:36
CAMERA OBSCURA
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A lot of books often have the wrong chords.

I have never seen or played it with the chords you posted.

Try this

http://www.e-chords.com/chords/the-b...r-gently-weeps

You will see the chord should be Am/G


The pinky on the bottom E (g) is used more as a bass run rather than a chord. Followed by Am/F# and then Am/F (the /F# and /F also act as a bass run)

It is strange your book has it as C6 - a C6 chord has the pinky on the A string (third fret -C- note)

Hope that helped.
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Old 26-01-2016, 19:57
Doghouse Riley
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Digressing a bit.

I can't speak for this site, but chord tab sites are notorious for "getting it wrong," on occasions. Also sometimes chords are missing.
Sheet music became a pain to buy, in that quite often music shops, (before many disappeared) didn't have it in or hadn't got the music for the same tune in all the usual options, i.e. for "C" instruments, "Bb" instruments or "Eb" instruments. Sheet music also became expensive.
For years now I've used a site called "Music Notes," where you can obtain the original sheet music for most tunes and transpose it to a key of your choice before downloading and printing it off, for just a few pounds.
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Old 27-01-2016, 13:40
SepangBlue
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A lot of books often have the wrong chords.

I have never seen or played it with the chords you posted.

Try this

http://www.e-chords.com/chords/the-b...r-gently-weeps

You will see the chord should be Am/G


The pinky on the bottom E (g) is used more as a bass run rather than a chord. Followed by Am/F# and then Am/F (the /F# and /F also act as a bass run)

It is strange your book has it as C6 - a C6 chord has the pinky on the A string (third fret -C- note)

Hope that helped.
Many thanks for your helpful reply. I've checked again on several websites for the C6 chord shape in standard tuning and they all concur with you (naturally!) in that the Am shape with the pinky on the 3rd fret the A string is the correct way. Strange that my chord bible, The Encyclopaedia of Picture Chords for all Guitarists (1990), compiled by Lenard Vogler (over 1800 guitar chords are shown in clear photographs), should show it incorrectly.

However, your reply has raised another question. Looking at your link to the song progression with which you are clearly more familiar, I see that it starts in Am, as does my version, but then there are chords which I'm never sure how to approach, so perhaps you'll be able to advise me.

From the link the chords are: Am > Am/G > Am/F# > Am/F > Am > G > D/F# > E, etc. My question relates to those chords where, in print at least, it seems there is a choice, i.e. Am/F# might mean play either Am or F#. I'm quite sure that is not what is meant, but I've often noticed this chord arrangement in song books and I've never known how to interpret it.

Help please!
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Old 27-01-2016, 15:19
CAMERA OBSCURA
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https://youtu.be/b291_z4hCJ4
This explains it nicely.

Rather than strumming all the strings on the Am/* chords just try hitting the bass/root note once at the start of each chord change and then strum the Am chord without it. That way it acts as a bass run.

You'll see when he gets to Am/F he chooses to play a barred F chord. That's fine and actually sounds better.
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Old 27-01-2016, 21:44
SaddlerSteve
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Many thanks for your helpful reply. I've checked again on several websites for the C6 chord shape in standard tuning and they all concur with you (naturally!) in that the Am shape with the pinky on the 3rd fret the A string is the correct way. Strange that my chord bible, The Encyclopaedia of Picture Chords for all Guitarists (1990), compiled by Lenard Vogler (over 1800 guitar chords are shown in clear photographs), should show it incorrectly.

However, your reply has raised another question. Looking at your link to the song progression with which you are clearly more familiar, I see that it starts in Am, as does my version, but then there are chords which I'm never sure how to approach, so perhaps you'll be able to advise me.

From the link the chords are: Am > Am/G > Am/F# > Am/F > Am > G > D/F# > E, etc. My question relates to those chords where, in print at least, it seems there is a choice, i.e. Am/F# might mean play either Am or F#. I'm quite sure that is not what is meant, but I've often noticed this chord arrangement in song books and I've never known how to interpret it.

Help please!
It's not a choice between the 2 chords.
The note shown after the slash is to show the bass note.
This the give you a descending bass run over the top of the chords being played.

So if you take the chord run above the first 4 chords would be:

Am - X02210
Am/G - 302210
Am/F# - 202210
Am/F - 102210

I find the easiest way to play something like this is to wrap your thumb around the top of the fretboard to fret the bass notes whilst holding the Am chord normally all the way thorough.
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Old 28-01-2016, 16:54
SepangBlue
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https://youtu.be/b291_z4hCJ4
This explains it nicely.

Rather than strumming all the strings on the Am/* chords just try hitting the bass/root note once at the start of each chord change and then strum the Am chord without it. That way it acts as a bass run.

You'll see when he gets to Am/F he chooses to play a barred F chord. That's fine and actually sounds better.
Thanks again CAMERA OBSCURA, that's really helpful.

Finally, I'm still looking for an answer to the question:

How are you supposed to strum a chord where one or more strings are designated 'silent' or 'not to be played' by an 'x' symbol in tab notation? The 'x' strings are usually the first and sixth, leaving the chord to be sounded being shaped on the four centre strings. But sometimes, usually where a barre chord is used at some weird inversion, there can be an 'x' string bang in the middle of your chord shape that you simply have to sound, otherwise you can't strike the chord at all.

My guess is that this is not actually always possible and that the person who wrote out the tab is merely being musically correct (pedantic)! Personally I tend to strum across all the strings come what may and it usually sounds OK!
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Old 28-01-2016, 17:11
Doghouse Riley
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Thanks again CAMERA OBSCURA, that's really helpful.

Finally, I'm still looking for an answer to the question:

How are you supposed to strum a chord where one or more strings are designated 'silent' or 'not to be played' by an 'x' symbol in tab notation? The 'x' strings are usually the first and sixth, leaving the chord to be sounded being shaped on the four centre strings. But sometimes, usually where a barre chord is used at some weird inversion, there can be an 'x' string bang in the middle of your chord shape that you simply have to sound, otherwise you can't strike the chord at all.

My guess is that this is not actually always possible and that the person who wrote out the tab is merely being musically correct (pedantic)! Personally I tend to strum across all the strings come what may and it usually sounds OK!
The 2nd-5th strings are used to play what are called "inside chords." They are quite common with jazz guitar performances. the method of playing jazz guitar, often incorporates frequent use of the "American grip," where the hand is wrapped around the neck of the guitar with the thumb holding down the bass string.
When inside chords are used, it is possible to dampen the sixth string with the thumb and the first string with, say third and fourth fingers of the playing hand. Leaving just the 2nd to 5th string audible.

There's no hard and fast rule, it's the end result that counts
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Old 28-01-2016, 18:31
SaddlerSteve
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Thanks again CAMERA OBSCURA, that's really helpful.

Finally, I'm still looking for an answer to the question:

How are you supposed to strum a chord where one or more strings are designated 'silent' or 'not to be played' by an 'x' symbol in tab notation? The 'x' strings are usually the first and sixth, leaving the chord to be sounded being shaped on the four centre strings. But sometimes, usually where a barre chord is used at some weird inversion, there can be an 'x' string bang in the middle of your chord shape that you simply have to sound, otherwise you can't strike the chord at all.

My guess is that this is not actually always possible and that the person who wrote out the tab is merely being musically correct (pedantic)! Personally I tend to strum across all the strings come what may and it usually sounds OK!
In most cases you can dampen the X strings with fingers on the adjacent strings.

If a chord box is written out its usually able to be fretted as its shown. Quite a lot of tab books do have some weird ways of playing things because they seem to just transcribe notes without paying attention to where they are in the fretboard.
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Old 28-01-2016, 18:54
SepangBlue
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Thanks everyone - that's pretty clear now.

I never had lessons (who did in the sixties when all you wanted to do was learn to play a few chords as quickly as possible so you could start a group?) but I'm pretty sure tutors rather frown on the thumb coming round in the way we all do that! They seem to prefer you to keep the thumb pressed well into the centre of the back of the neck, which encourages what at first is a rather strange wrist position, but which over time enables a better grip (reduced buzzing) and a wider stretch with the little finger.

I'm just a legend in my own lunchtime, so I do it any way I want .. so long as it sounds about right, that'll do me!
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Old 28-01-2016, 19:08
Doghouse Riley
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Here's an example of the use of the Western Grip, by the late Barney Kessel. Not all the time but for much of the performance.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfIVeSsEMdI

Here's another jazz guitarist using that grip.

Tal Farlow.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIaseicCzFk

There's a lot more of them.
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Old 29-01-2016, 10:54
SaddlerSteve
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Thanks everyone - that's pretty clear now.

I never had lessons (who did in the sixties when all you wanted to do was learn to play a few chords as quickly as possible so you could start a group?) but I'm pretty sure tutors rather frown on the thumb coming round in the way we all do that! They seem to prefer you to keep the thumb pressed well into the centre of the back of the neck, which encourages what at first is a rather strange wrist position, but which over time enables a better grip (reduced buzzing) and a wider stretch with the little finger.

I'm just a legend in my own lunchtime, so I do it any way I want .. so long as it sounds about right, that'll do me!
The "proper" way to bar chord is as you describe.
Hendrix was a big fan of playing the chords with his thumb over the top holding the bass note as it allowed him to play licks and bends easier with his other fingers.
It's a great way of keeping the chord backing whilst throwing in lead playing.
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Old 29-01-2016, 16:28
SepangBlue
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Here's an example of the use of the Western Grip, by the late Barney Kessel. Not all the time but for much of the performance.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfIVeSsEMdI

Here's another jazz guitarist using that grip.

Tal Farlow.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIaseicCzFk


There's a lot more of them.
Lovely .. thanks.!
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Old 29-01-2016, 17:39
Doghouse Riley
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Lovely .. thanks.!
And here's a jazz guitarist who used what some would call the conventional or Spanish style.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_kUJa1PueM
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Old 29-01-2016, 18:08
callmediva
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I'm a it late to the party but just to add a little bit for yu...

The slash chords are called "over" chords, IE. C/G is called a "C over G bass" it can also sometimes be referred to a "Full C" chord, C/F# would just be called a "C over F# bass" the best way to play the is usually using the thumb but if you find it awkward, you could always try paying the main part of the chord in a different way so as to free up a finger to pay the bass note. Remember it;s not just C that can have alternate bass notes, any chord can, for example Am/F would be an Am with the 6th string first fret pressed down.

As to strumming a guitar with certain strings muted, the best way is to curve your thumb over the top if it's a bass note (as in a standard open D) or if it's a 1st string you can try using your palm to mute the string, middle strings can be muted using the fingers you're pressing adjacent strings with.

Hope that helps
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Old 29-01-2016, 19:17
SepangBlue
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And here's a jazz guitarist who used what some would call the conventional or Spanish style.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_kUJa1PueM
Joe Pass! Heard of him but never really been into jazz guitarists. He's great though, isn't he? Thanks again for the heads up.
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Old 29-01-2016, 19:19
SepangBlue
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I'm a it late to the party but just to add a little bit for yu...

The slash chords are called "over" chords, IE. C/G is called a "C over G bass" it can also sometimes be referred to a "Full C" chord, C/F# would just be called a "C over F# bass" the best way to play the is usually using the thumb but if you find it awkward, you could always try paying the main part of the chord in a different way so as to free up a finger to pay the bass note. Remember it;s not just C that can have alternate bass notes, any chord can, for example Am/F would be an Am with the 6th string first fret pressed down.

As to strumming a guitar with certain strings muted, the best way is to curve your thumb over the top if it's a bass note (as in a standard open D) or if it's a 1st string you can try using your palm to mute the string, middle strings can be muted using the fingers you're pressing adjacent strings with.

Hope that helps
Better late than never .. it's always gratifying to find a few like minded souls who are happy to share their knowledge in this way.

Thanks for your input and contribution!
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Old 29-01-2016, 19:54
Doghouse Riley
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Joe Pass! Heard of him but never really been into jazz guitarists. He's great though, isn't he? Thanks again for the heads up.
Just to underline the fact that there's no "right or wrong way."

Here's another style. Wes Montgomery. (Died 1968).
His use of single notes, octaves and block chords influenced a lot of jazz guitarists.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-iVgONy8kMY


George Benson plays in a similar fashion decades later, though nowhere near as well.
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Old 30-01-2016, 14:37
SepangBlue
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Just to underline the fact that there's no "right or wrong way."

Here's another style. Wes Montgomery. (Died 1968).
His use of single notes, octaves and block chords influenced a lot of jazz guitarists.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-iVgONy8kMY


George Benson plays in a similar fashion decades later, though nowhere near as well.
Until the camera moved in closer to him it looked as if he had enormously long fingernails on his left hand. That can't be right I thought (I always keep mine really short) until I saw that he actually had really long fingers! I have quite large hands but my fingers aren't overly long, so a 4-fret stretch is just that, a stretch!

Interesting to see what he did with his right hand too. He didn't appear to use a pick and pretty much everything came from his thumb. He must have pinched a few notes, but the film clip is quite old so it's hard to tell for sure.

Thanks for the link, though!
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Old 30-01-2016, 18:20
Doghouse Riley
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Until the camera moved in closer to him it looked as if he had enormously long fingernails on his left hand. That can't be right I thought (I always keep mine really short) until I saw that he actually had really long fingers! I have quite large hands but my fingers aren't overly long, so a 4-fret stretch is just that, a stretch!

Interesting to see what he did with his right hand too. He didn't appear to use a pick and pretty much everything came from his thumb. He must have pinched a few notes, but the film clip is quite old so it's hard to tell for sure.

Thanks for the link, though!
As a final example of style. This is a very old recording of mine of Barry Galbraith, I've had since my teens. It shows you how versatile it is possible to be, unaccompanied and using mainly chords to play the tune on the first run through, followed by a solo, with the rest of the quartet, made up of very well known jazz musicians.
This jazz guitarist isn't well known. However since I put this recording on YouTube in 2011 it has had nearly 12,000, hits. So many who appreciated his abilities must have sought such recordings out. Lots of complimentary messages have been posted about the recording.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lrakx9Cezs

There are very few recordings of him on YouTube, but a hell of a lot of other enthusiasts, playing his arrangements.
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Old 31-01-2016, 18:35
ags_rule
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Digressing a bit.

I can't speak for this site, but chord tab sites are notorious for "getting it wrong," on occasions. Also sometimes chords are missing.
Sheet music became a pain to buy, in that quite often music shops, (before many disappeared) didn't have it in or hadn't got the music for the same tune in all the usual options, i.e. for "C" instruments, "Bb" instruments or "Eb" instruments. Sheet music also became expensive.
For years now I've used a site called "Music Notes," where you can obtain the original sheet music for most tunes and transpose it to a key of your choice before downloading and printing it off, for just a few pounds.
Must disagree with this.

This may have been true about a decade ago when tab sites were first taking off, but it is largely not the case any more. If you are trying to learn something obscure that not many people will have made a tab for then sheet music is probably still your best bet; but for something popular like a Beatles song, the likes of ultimate-guitar.com will more than suffice.

I'm basing this off personal experience, by the way. Ultimate-guitar previously had no Led Zeppelin tabs due to legal issues, and a friend of mine bought me the official sheet music/tab book for their greatest hits. Inaccuracies absolutely everywhere; UG has since sorted out the legal issues and their tabs are far better than what was in the official book. People sometimes think because it's an "official" tab/sheet music book that it therefore has had some input from the artist themselves to ensure it's correct; this is, almost exclusively, never the case.
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Old 31-01-2016, 19:01
SepangBlue
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As a final example of style. This is a very old recording of mine of Barry Galbraith, I've had since my teens. It shows you how versatile it is possible to be, unaccompanied and using mainly chords to play the tune on the first run through, followed by a solo, with the rest of the quartet, made up of very well known jazz musicians.
This jazz guitarist isn't well known. However since I put this recording on YouTube in 2011 it has had nearly 12,000, hits. So many who appreciated his abilities must have sought such recordings out. Lots of complimentary messages have been posted about the recording.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lrakx9Cezs

There are very few recordings of him on YouTube, but a hell of a lot of other enthusiasts, playing his arrangements.
Brilliant, DR .. and the After Hours clip too. Jazz has always been a bit of an elitist foreign country to me, but by looking into a few things of the sort that you have pointed to in this thread, I think I could easily become hooked!
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Old 31-01-2016, 20:29
Doghouse Riley
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Must disagree with this.

This may have been true about a decade ago when tab sites were first taking off, but it is largely not the case any more. If you are trying to learn something obscure that not many people will have made a tab for then sheet music is probably still your best bet; but for something popular like a Beatles song, the likes of ultimate-guitar.com will more than suffice.

I'm basing this off personal experience, by the way. Ultimate-guitar previously had no Led Zeppelin tabs due to legal issues, and a friend of mine bought me the official sheet music/tab book for their greatest hits. Inaccuracies absolutely everywhere; UG has since sorted out the legal issues and their tabs are far better than what was in the official book. People sometimes think because it's an "official" tab/sheet music book that it therefore has had some input from the artist themselves to ensure it's correct; this is, almost exclusively, never the case.
All due respect, for many Beatles songs and those of many other pop artists, you don't need tabs you can work it out in your head. Some of the tabs on Ultimate Guitar are the simplified versions, as I said before, sometimes chords in a bar are omitted, particularly if there are three or four.

But it's a "first step," for many.

I don't normally bother with "books," unless it's those written by jazz musicians who include the jazz chords printed above those in the original sheet music.
As I mentioned earlier, I prefer the actual written sheet music, which can be acquired legally and quite cheaply from "Music Notes."

Brilliant, DR .. and the After Hours clip too. Jazz has always been a bit of an elitist foreign country to me, but by looking into a few things of the sort that you have pointed to in this thread, I think I could easily become hooked!
Glad you liked it. The "After Hours" commentary I thought was a bit over the top. It was a pilot for a series that never materialised.

At the time I linked it, in 2011, it had received only 57 views, now it's up to over 1,500, so more have found it.
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Old 01-02-2016, 15:15
callmediva
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Better late than never .. it's always gratifying to find a few like minded souls who are happy to share their knowledge in this way.

Thanks for your input and contribution!

No problem, I used to teach guitar before an injured shoulder and hand stopped me, so if you need any help just ask, you can always DM me
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